TradeMutt founders Edward Ross and Daniel Allen join us, as we unpack the journey behind their business and social enterprise, which covers personal loss, mental health advocacy, and a never say die approach to business.
Our conversation highlights their resilience and vulnerability, as Ed and Dan discuss the unseen challenges of entrepreneurship. They emphasise the importance of a strong support system, both personally and at work, and share how their initiative, is changing lives by offering counselling to those less likely to seek help. Their candid reflections on their journey from two to thirty-five team members show the courage needed to lead a business focused on such an important cause.
Ed and Dan's experiences provide a raw, unfiltered look at the intersections of life, work, and well-being, from navigating grief and relationships to fighting the stigma around mental health. Their story is a powerful call to action—reminding us that it's not just about starting the conversation, but being brave enough to continue it.
You can find Trademutt website here.
Dan's TedX Talk here.
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LinkedIn
Did you enjoy the episode? Send us a text!
______________
Thanks for joining us on the Lead with Courage podcast, bought to you by Luminate Leadership. We trust this episode has given you some insights and joy to empower you live your biggest, best life.
If you enjoyed it, we'd be grateful if you like, share and subscribe to hear our future conversations.
To find out more about the work we do Luminate Leadership connect with us:
Luminate's Website and LinkedIn and on
Instagram : Luminate_Leadership and Cherie Canning
Until the next episode, we hope you live and Lead with Courage!
Cherie and Andy x
______________
Luminate Leadership is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.
TradeMutt founders Edward Ross and Daniel Allen join us, as we unpack the journey behind their business and social enterprise, which covers personal loss, mental health advocacy, and a never say die approach to business.
Our conversation highlights their resilience and vulnerability, as Ed and Dan discuss the unseen challenges of entrepreneurship. They emphasise the importance of a strong support system, both personally and at work, and share how their initiative, is changing lives by offering counselling to those less likely to seek help. Their candid reflections on their journey from two to thirty-five team members show the courage needed to lead a business focused on such an important cause.
Ed and Dan's experiences provide a raw, unfiltered look at the intersections of life, work, and well-being, from navigating grief and relationships to fighting the stigma around mental health. Their story is a powerful call to action—reminding us that it's not just about starting the conversation, but being brave enough to continue it.
You can find Trademutt website here.
Dan's TedX Talk here.
Socials
Instagram
LinkedIn
Did you enjoy the episode? Send us a text!
______________
Thanks for joining us on the Lead with Courage podcast, bought to you by Luminate Leadership. We trust this episode has given you some insights and joy to empower you live your biggest, best life.
If you enjoyed it, we'd be grateful if you like, share and subscribe to hear our future conversations.
To find out more about the work we do Luminate Leadership connect with us:
Luminate's Website and LinkedIn and on
Instagram : Luminate_Leadership and Cherie Canning
Until the next episode, we hope you live and Lead with Courage!
Cherie and Andy x
______________
Luminate Leadership is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.
Hi, I'm Chloe Canning. Luminate Leadership acknowledges the traditional custodians of the land which we recall this podcast, the Terrible and Yerga people. We pay our respects to elders past, present and emerging.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Lead with Courage, the podcast that celebrates the bold and inspiring stories of leaders making a difference. We're your hosts, andy and Cherie Canning, and together we'll dive into the minds of the trailblazers, the risk takers and those who embrace life with a growth mindset. So welcome, ed and Dan, to the Lead with Courage podcast. It is fantastic to have you guys here.
Speaker 3:Thanks for having us.
Speaker 2:Thank you. We just landed in on a flight the other day, coming in from LA to Brisbane, and the guy across the aisle from me was wearing one of the brightest, best trademark shirts I've ever seen and it made me smile so hard just seeing, like from America. I don't know how many people on the brand be exposed to in the States now because of that one, but it was so nice seeing someone wear that on the plane and I was saying to Andy can you believe? We've got the guys on next week on the podcast and it was just great timing. So I really want to thank you both for taking the time to come and share your story and tell us about Trademark Dan, I mentioned to you I got to view you on your TED tedx talk. I think it's the end of 2022, so really been inspired by the work you guys are doing, um, and been following along really keenly ever since, so we're we're pumped to get into this conversation awesome that was.
Speaker 4:Uh, there was a bit of a flex there. Sheses just flying back from LA the other day, yeah.
Speaker 2:Let's not talk about your stomach problems while we're away.
Speaker 4:Hey, Were you up the front or down the back with the trademark shirts?
Speaker 3:Yeah, where was he sitting yeah?
Speaker 2:He was very tightly squeezed into an economy seat, that guy. I don't know that he would have had the most comfortable journey, but he looked good Spent all his money on the shirt.
Speaker 5:Yeah, for a good cause. The great mothers are in the cattle class.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we'll move it across the whole flight. Who knows? Right, Andy, I'll hand over to you.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yes, you will, and I'll hand it back to the guys as well, and I'll just ask one question uh, what does lead with courage mean to you?
Speaker 3:lead with courage? Well, probably just getting it done, I suppose, isn't it? Um, I think, yeah, there's like an interesting thing I saw the other day about, um, um, elon musk was talking about how, like entrepreneurship or like being business leaders or owners or whatever, basically your job is to do the shittest jobs. Um, and I suppose we've found that out through the, through our journey. Is that, um, yeah, the thing that no one else can or wants to do is basically what gets lumped with the founders and owners and directors of organizations, and I suppose, in regards to like the leadership component, you've just got to, yeah, buck up and get it done. So I suppose it's just sort of, yeah, showing up and continuing to get it done is probably, yeah, leading with courage, I suppose, from my perspective.
Speaker 5:That's interesting because when I was like looking at that question, I pretty much thought exactly the same thing as what ed just said, because I was looking at the word lead and like leadership and all the talk and conversation around leadership generally business and life, and I was like what, like leadership is tough, like leadership is hard, especially when you've got a team, because, yeah, you do have to keep turning up and you've got to keep turning up in the highs and the lows, and one thing that I have discovered is that there are high highs and there are low lows and as the business grows and changes like, you experience both of it all the way through in different ways.
Speaker 5:Um, and sometimes it's hard to like, like be that leader that you think you're supposed to be, when all you like you're struggling to just even turn up, you know. But you still do turn up because you know that you've got, you know, stakeholders and customers and staff and you know business partner and all this stuff you know, and so you just turn up and sometimes turning up is the best you can do and even that is like is the best you know, yeah, yeah, sometimes just being there is enough.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, sometimes just being there is enough. Yeah, yeah, yeah, great, awesome, thank you. For those who might not be as familiar with the brands and the social enterprise that you guys run, can you tell us about Trademark how it started, and then TX as well? Maybe? Take us back, I think, hearing the early stages you guys working together, ed, you're an apprentice chippy from what I know, so can you guys take us back to the early stages, you guys working together, ed? You're an apprentice chippy from what I know, so can you guys take us back to the early, early stage of meeting each other and where this idea came from?
Speaker 5:Well, we met on a building site in Brisbane in 2014 on a job in Chapel Hill. Oh, no, kenmore, kenmore, yeah, kenmore, and yeah it was was weird. It was actually really weird because I mean, like I don't think it's necessarily worthwhile going into this part of the story, but me and ed have both got really like weird sort of you know stories from both of our sides of how we actually ended up on that building site that day like working for that builder and so, yeah, both really strange occurrences to have got to the point where we met and so yeah that like I remember meeting ed and he was like fresh from wrangling cattle out in central west queensland, like proper, like hillbilly or you know, like I've never heard it's like nodding along in agreeance here.
Speaker 2:I've never heard anything like it yeah, and so for what?
Speaker 5:and yeah, I'm from sydney, so, like I and I don't know, I don't know what a cowboy does or like, what they, how they are or whatever you call them. You don't call them cowboys, that's cartoons. You call them, I don't know, ringers or something, and um, yeah, so me and ed, we met that day and I was just very taken aback by this guy's character because he was nothing like I'd ever seen before, because we were the two new blokes we got lumped together, unfortunately, so that was really where it kicked off. Ed, do you want to chime in?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I suppose it was yeah, meeting on a job site and just yeah, building a mateship and whatnot. From yeah, building a mateship and whatnot. From yeah, doing shit jobs together. Really.
Speaker 5:The first job was waterproofing. Like, the first job that we did was how many lineal metres of retaining wall do you reckon it was?
Speaker 3:Oh, it was fucking a lot.
Speaker 5:Like maybe 150 lineal metres of retaining wall?
Speaker 3:Wow, and then like yeah, it's waterproof like it was a waterproofing job and it's like waterproofing a wall is shit, Like you know how if you drop something like behind the couch or like the TV cabinet, there's like a really small gap and it's a fucking pain in the ass to get your hand down there. Yep. That's pretty much what we had to do for 150 metres, but paint and make sure that like it was sealed properly. So yeah, it's a shithouse job.
Speaker 2:Middle of summer Sounds like a blast.
Speaker 5:The thing is that we is that, like I was three years out of my time as a tradie, like I was a carpenter for like 11 years, I guess, on the tools and so, and Ed was like starting his mature age apprenticeship, so, um, you know, um, he was just starting out. Because we got lumped together. We're doing this shitty job like I shouldn't be doing that job, tradies don't do that job, like that's an apprentice job or a labor, labor job. You know what I mean? Because we're the two new blokes. Like we just got lumped with this shit thing and ed just would not stop whinging like he was just wh lumped with this shit thing and Ed just would not stop whinging, like he was just whinging like in this real nasally cowboy Westie voice like meh.
Speaker 2:Has that changed? Has that changed over the years?
Speaker 5:Not really to be honest, and I was just like, eventually, I was like, mate, like you've got to shut the fuck up. Like we've got this is a test, we new blokes. They're testing us. This is just a test of our character. You're not passing at the moment. Like all this whinging, like what they want to hear is nothing. They want to hear the sound of your paintbrush painting this fucking wall. It is a test, like let's just get on with it and get it done, and I think we carried that mentality all the way through, even today, about every single challenge that we've faced in business, being a test yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2:I love it and it's like, well, you're not passing right now with that attitude so like what else can you?
Speaker 2:do yeah, it's a good lesson in life. And then, um, fast forward some time. I believe you know recapping the TEDx talk, dan, and I know this is not a fun part of the conversation, but I think a pivotal part of the conversation that you got a call. You got a call from a mate, a really close mate, and he had some great news about getting a mature age apprenticeship. Do you want to talk? I remember you saying you're standing at the top of a ladder if that's correct, I was on top of a ladder.
Speaker 5:If that's correct, I was on top of a ladder, exactly. You definitely watched that Ted talk to you.
Speaker 3:You probably know that story better than half your marketing team.
Speaker 2:Well, let me tell you what happened Dan.
Speaker 5:No, yeah, I do. Yeah, I remember that. We both remember that day really clearly, to be honest. Yeah, standing on top of a ladder, I think we were cutting cement sheets and you know we're putting a ceiling up or something and ed was cutting cement sheets and um, yeah, so he was down down on the floor taking his sweet ass time, probably probably not wearing a dust mask or any hearing protection, just doing it like a cowboy, um, and so I had time to answer the phone when it called um and yeah, it was. It was my mate, dan, who was one of the first mates that I made when I moved to brisbane in 2010.
Speaker 5:Um very quickly became like a, like a brother, um and um, yeah, it was with dan and he was, yeah, just pure elation through the phone. Um on that call because, yeah, it was, he'd been looking for a mature age apprenticeship for ages um and just couldn't land anything like um had a bit of instability in his life like um, so it was a bit of a battle, I guess, at times, but um, yeah, I got that call that day and it was, yeah, pure relation, like couldn't believe it, bursting through the phone. You know, finally, things are, things are happening. And, yeah, I remember that like how stoked I was for him as well, because it was just like fuck, yeah, here we go, like um, and so, yeah, obviously that that was one of the the hardest parts I guess to take about the call that I got, yeah, the three days later, which was to let me know that dan had taken his life on saturday night, um, which I mean, I don't know that, you know, suicides or when you lose someone to suicide, like it's an impossible thing to know how to handle, because the mix of emotions, the range of emotions, are unlike any kind of other grief that I've ever experienced before.
Speaker 5:You know, because there's so many questions and you go through the rollercoaster of emotions, like the shock, obviously, initially, and then like the sadness kicks in, but then you sort of become overcome with this, or at least I became overcome with this feeling of like being pissed off and angry and just like you know. And so, yeah, they're all really really hectic emotions to experience and oh, yeah, I'll never really really hectic emotions to experience. Yeah, I'll never forget that time in my life, for sure, but that event, you know, that was one of, you know, many events I guess that set in motion this whole journey that we're on now. The time following that happening was quite, you know, reflective and you know it was just experiencing that process of grief and you know it just takes time to go through that and as time goes on, you, the way you talk about things, it changes a bit and the way you reflect on things changes.
Speaker 5:And and obviously in that time, me and ed, when I were working so much together at the time, so we were spending 16 hours a day with each other, and so he really was my number one sort of support network, the most consistent, most reliable support network, through that whole time, and he had no idea what to say or what to do really, but definitely just held space for me to be able to, like you know, vent or talk openly about kind of things and what had happened.
Speaker 5:And we used to talk about the mental health space, you know, and we kind of started to formulate these observations of us like ourselves, which were like things like the bus stop that you drive past, um, with the crisis support line and the dimly lit room, with the bloke, with his head down and the blinds pulled, trying to personify depression and kind of thinking well, that kind of advertising of mental health is like not what. I don't think that's what it looks like. I don't think that's what people's experiences really are and that's kind of looks like I don't think that's what people's experiences really are and that's kind of what me and Ed thought we were like well, no wonder no one wants to talk about this stuff if that's how it's being sold to us, because no one would want to identify with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the heaviness, the darkness, the negativity of it.
Speaker 5:I can't imagine, yeah, I can't imagine. You couldn't imagine, if you're in that spot, that you'd really want to identify with someone that looks like that, I guess, yeah, so yeah, and that was when it, when we kind of, I guess, had this sort of light bulb moment, like we used to talk about workwear on site um in the early days, one of many things like ideas we used to talk about and we used to talk about. You know why has no one ever changed high of his work where, um, and that was just an idea. But then, you know, I guess that's that seed of an idea then developed into this idea that well, maybe, maybe we could do something to brighten up mental wealth and make it a bit more fun and colorful and a bit more, you know, approachable and appealing. I guess, and and that's when this, yeah, this idea for trademark started to, which was, you know, maybe we could use work where it was a fun sort of way to start conversations about mental health.
Speaker 5:We didn't really know about social enterprise at the time, we didn't know of that style of business, we weren't really aware. But, like we, we did some startup sort of programs and we were trying to start this business and we learned about that style of business and, yeah, it all kind of just came together a bit and started to evolve into this idea, yeah, that we'd create some work where to start conversations about mental health and make the invisible impossible to ignore. So I don't really know what we were thinking, to be honest. I don't think we were. I actually don't think we were thinking necessarily.
Speaker 2:Just in like I don't know default mode almost. Was it Not a you know strategic approach to something? It was just going by the gut feeling.
Speaker 5:I just really don't know what we were thinking. We just wanted to start something and like we weren't doing cashies at the time and we were renovating kitchens and bathrooms on saturday nights and sunday nights and all hours, and it was actually really stupid. Like the way we were working was almost so stupid that it was exhilarating. Like we were working seven days a week, 16 hours a day together over and over and over months at a time. Take a weekend off, do it again. And, yeah, saved $30,000 and had this idea that you know, following this tragedy and through all the money that we had in the world at that, $30,000 on 1,500 work shirts and two computers.
Speaker 5:And yeah, we didn't have any sales strategy. We didn't know how we were going to sell them, how we were going to launch it, how we were going to launch it, how we were going to build a website, how anything. We had no idea. So I think our naivety really was sort of good, because as a couple of tradies, I think we had like a problem-solving mentality and we were used to renovating twisted old Queenslanders and you know houses in the suburbs and you've got to come in and think pretty differently to be able to do that stuff and I think the suburbs and you're going to come in and think pretty differently to be able to do that stuff and I think we took that approach into business and and, yeah, we've been like, we've been solving problems ever since.
Speaker 2:I think, yeah, that that's. It's so inspiring. Um, a huge, a huge acknowledgement, though, and I'm so sorry for your loss and and I wonder sometimes if knowing what has come out of that tragedy can sometimes give you a sense of a smile. But, yeah, it's a dreadful experience but a wonderful outcome in a strange way, if I haven't just really stuffed up my words there.
Speaker 5:No, no, no, Like you're right, you're exactly right, because, like it is that and it's like it's not. Yeah, it's quite a layered thing and that's a huge part of it. The fact that, yeah, it's quite a layered thing and that's a huge part of it, the fact that you know there is a positive thing that's come out of this. But, like, sometimes it gets you when you don't really expect it and, like, I mean, yesterday was a perfect example of that, because I saw and I had an email come through on Monday, on Monday night, from my mate's dad, from my mate's dad, because we'd put out a post, an EDM to our community about the meaning of YNWA on our shirts and that YNWA You'll Never Walk Alone is very much linked to my mate Dan and his dad had got that email and responded to it late on Monday night and I saw the email on Tuesday morning but I didn't open it because, like, I just I know I was like I can't, you know, um, like, and so, yeah, and I opened it yesterday afternoon at like four o'clock and, yeah, it fucking rocked me because it was just like him talking about how happy he is and how important YNWA is in their life and was in their lives still and he was like telling me all these stories about, you know, when he'd been to the football to see Liverpool play with his son. And it's getting me a bit choked up now thinking about it.
Speaker 5:But like, yeah, yesterday was just one of those days where you get an email from you know the father, and it's your right thing, because you don't really think about like I don't think about it every day when we're doing what we do, like I talk about it and you know, tell the story. But when you're in the business, you know mental health, like you, you know you've got other shit to do all the time, but sometimes you forget that there's this whole thing that happened, you know, in the genesis of the story. And yeah, fuck, yesterday just I was a balling, like I was a balling mess to my office. So I can, I did go, I just get my computer and leave. So, yeah, it gets you sometimes. But yeah, that's, that's the game we're in and I'm sure we'll talk about vulnerability at some point too, right thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 4:Um, you kind of got me when you were talking about that too. I felt felt a little bit of moisture, um kind of up and around there, and I've got contacts on today, so that wasn't really helpful at all.
Speaker 5:So thank you for that chopping onions in the other room too yeah, that's it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's definitely a private chef downstairs. Um, they're, yeah, incredible and and I'd imagine you know in a way I totally, totally understand um, you know to an extent where you're coming from that it just takes a minute maybe to collect yourself and then before you can kind of launch in and read that and acknowledge it and then like let it sink in and let it marinate and and let it almost go full circle and be like, yeah, that's why we do what we do, that's why we turn up every day that's why, we turn up every day.
Speaker 4:That's why we wear the high viz. That's why we have the beautiful colorful shirts. That's why we worked cashies and save 30 grand and they'd bought 15 000 shirts. It worked out how we sell them to to honor people just like dan and his family who, who know they'll never walk alone yeah, no, well said.
Speaker 5:I mean I think sometimes sometimes myself and ed, like in the in the journey of the business and that like we've been at it now for, oh, I mean, eight years.
Speaker 5:The business just turned six, trademark just turned six in march, but I guess we've been at it for probably eight years on this project with the work we did before that.
Speaker 5:And I think we're out for dinner last night with a couple of our staff who had anniversaries and me and Ed were just reminiscing on stories from like back in the day that we don't really talk about much anymore and it's like fuck, we've come such a long way and we've actually done so much ridiculous shit together and the stuff that we've done to get you know, to keep the business alive and to get it to where it is, and just like I don't think I could do it again you know what I mean Like I don't think I can do any of it again, but like we don't reflect.
Speaker 5:I think sometimes you get so caught up in the day-to-day running and you know charging forward that you sometimes don't stop to reflect, you know, on a lot of the way you've come from and how you've done it. Yeah, I don't know. I was kind of sitting there last night with me and Ed for talk and thinking, yeah, fuck yeah, like, yeah, we've been through it, we've done it. You know we're still doing it, but we've definitely been through it too. You know, reflecting is good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's so true. I was literally having having a conversation with one of our clients yesterday and she's been in a business. She was employee number two and the business is 11 years old and we're saying now there are 150 people and the growth they're having and there's all this growth, growth, growth. And we both had very similar conversations saying how we need to stop often and reflect and celebrate because there's always more you want to do and grow, and not always just a revenue growth, but the impact, whatever it may be, and I think it's fair to say in the mental health space, god, we've got a long, long, long, long, long way to go. So there's never that point where you go, okay, we're done now, like all the hard work's done, there's still so much to do. So I imagine naturally you don't stop to see it reflect as often, because it's always like well, how else can we impact the community? What else can we be doing?
Speaker 5:yeah, I think ed and I really actually, to be honest, really bad for it. Like we just don't reflect, like we should, you know um. So yeah, you're right, and everyone says it as well you're supposed to stop and reflect, you're supposed to take stock, you know some, but like it's easier said than done because, yeah, when you just want to get on with business and you just, you know, get shit done, yeah, it's like so.
Speaker 1:But yeah, it's part of the whole rollercoaster, yeah, isn't it?
Speaker 2:And I think sometimes it's these conversations like when someone gets you to come on and share your story and share the moments in the brand and what you're doing. It kind of forces that reminder Ed over to you. Were there any reflections that, um, that, as dan just mentioned here, were sharing today? That from what you guys were chatting about yesterday?
Speaker 3:if there's anything, oh yeah, well, I mean far out, like I mean, yeah, it was, it was mainly just around, like the people that have been involved over the years and, um, yeah, it's kind of um, yeah, it's kind of funny because, like originally, when, um, it must have been, we must have been in business for about 18 months before we hired anyone. And then, like dan and I were just having this almighty blue one afternoon and, um, you know, one of us is like who the fuck is going to want to work for us? You know what I mean. Like there's no one who's going to want to work for us. Look at what we look like, look how we're acting anyway, and then, and eventually, like now, like we've got a team of whatever it is 35 people across TAX and Trademark. Like it's insane.
Speaker 3:But it's all the people that have come through along the journey as well, like Iris last night she's outside of Dan and I she's our longest standing employee, which is, yeah, four and a half years or whatever. She's been with us, and all the people that were before her and, you know, all the people that have came after her and up to now, it's just like reminiscing on, oh yeah, that person and that's right, like they were doing that for us and like we had no idea what we were doing and God knows how we were having them do anything, and like it was just chaos you know for so long. And then you know how they ended up leaving, and like the hilarious situations in which we found ourselves because you know like, a you don't get a manual on how to hire people and b you don't get a manual on how to sack people.
Speaker 3:You know what I mean and it's like, yeah, and the bit in the middle of how to get people back on track, yeah, and then, like we were talking about, yeah, like one of the first people we ever hired, and then eventually that person had to, you know, we had to part ways. And then we were laughing last night about how, like when we parted ways with that person, like they would catch the bus to work, so like I had to drive them back to their house.
Speaker 2:Thanks.
Speaker 3:Your future is no longer here, but I'll give you a little time but just like thinking back, just like man, like the stuff we have done over the years, that is just like. And like dan said, like yeah, if it's kind of the same thing. Like if someone said to us at the beginning it was like, well, yeah, if you guys want to do this like, this is what it looks like like. I doubt that either one of us would have been like, yeah, if I could sign us up for that um, you'd still be doing cashies on a weekend yeah, I know.
Speaker 3:But like I look, but looking back retrospectively as well, like you wouldn't you wouldn't change anything, because where we're at now is through everything that's happened. So it's like you know the business and the impact and everything, like it's never been better. And you know the collaborations, like you know Healthy Heads, trucks and Sheds yesterday, like we're launching with them, with TX and stuff next week, and like they're rolling out shirts like nationally with all their partners, and you know it's just like unbelievable where we're at now compared to the beginning, which was yeah A. Where we're at now compared to the beginning, which was yeah A, we've got no idea what we're doing, except we know we want to do something.
Speaker 3:And you know there's lots of doors that are shut on you because they're people, and I understandably why. I understand why because you know people reach out to us now wanting to do things and you're like how can we? You know we can't really help you. You know what I mean. Like you've sort of you're gonna get your own momentum, um, and that's been the whole thing. Really is just like maintaining momentum, and momentum has not been in the right direction at times as well, um, but at least we've been like moving um and I suppose that also ties into the element of not being um, you know, reflective on the past, because you're like well, yeah, yeah, we can sit here and talk about the old days, but it's like fuck, we've got x, y and z to get done today so we can get x, y, z sorted for next week. You know what I mean?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, we don't live in the past. We've got to keep moving forward. Yeah, it's a, it's a funny.
Speaker 3:It's sort of like a catch-22 to a degree, so it's a um, yeah, it's a funny. It's a funny one think. Yeah, like Dan was saying, last night was hilarious, hilarious, just yeah, sitting and reminiscing on just pivotal moments in the business where you just look back and shake your head and just like you know times where, like we were talking about as well last night about how we had about five grand in the bank and we were absolutely buggered and we were out of cash, and then we Our first year of business and we reached out to some people for some help and then, as we're walking into this meeting to like work out like a marketing strategy to help get rid of these last shirts, they're like, oh, you know, today's going to be five grand, oh, no fucking, just sitting there just like a ball of anxiety, just like we are so fucked.
Speaker 3:We are so fucked.
Speaker 2:What got you through that Like, did they just have a good marketing plan? No, it was our idea.
Speaker 3:Like we came up with the idea in that meeting. Anyway, I don't know why we paid those people in the end, because they kept chasing us for this invoice, but no, I think that what has kept us going is like what kept us going was the portaloos in that situation. Yeah, the portaloos in that situation.
Speaker 5:yeah, but both of our willingness not to throw the towel in basically is what has kept us going, because Out of that meeting we came up with an idea to lock ourselves in two portaloos for 24 hours, which in the middle of Queen Street Mall in Brisbane. We had a TV on the outside and two GoPros on the inside of both of them, and so people were walking past. They could see two tradies for 24 hours in real time on the toilet.
Speaker 2:And people donated money, or was it just awareness?
Speaker 5:No, the Today Show came and covered it on both days, on both mornings, going in Carl Stefanovic and Georgie Gardner. It was at the time they came and covered it. And we got like seven minutes prime time in the morning going into the toilets, wow, like another six or seven minutes prime time coming out the next day and we made about 75 grand overnight selling shirts. We were back in business.
Speaker 3:Yes, we were back on.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, Karl Stefanovic, portaloos Queen Street Mall back in business.
Speaker 3:That is a story More iconic duo. There isn't one yet.
Speaker 4:Yes, I was going to say if it was Koshi Koshi, would it have the same ring? Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't.
Speaker 5:No, you're right, he's a bit of a knob, isn't he fucking? I'm a. I'm a stephanovic.
Speaker 2:I'm in a stephanovic camp yeah, I think andy and I first started dating when carl won his first gold logi or whatever it was. I've never seen someone celebrate outside of sport so much than andy celebrating that win yeah, I think I I can relate to carl, I can't.
Speaker 4:I can't relate to koshi and I can't relate to Shervo the lunchbox either.
Speaker 3:The lunchbox. No few men can, I'd say.
Speaker 2:I've got a few thoughts on that, but I'll leave that for another time. If we go back to now where we're talking about impact because some people may be aware and maybe not but can you tell us a little bit about tx? And so basically, trademark is the work where people are buying that 50 of proceeds, I believe go to. This is a conversation starter. Tx can you tell us a bit more?
Speaker 3:yeah, yeah. So tx started basically again through the journey of realizing that we just didn't want to like tick a box because, yeah, also in hindsight, and actually, and funnily enough, like we never even considered it for some reason, I don't know why, but like we never considered giving money to any existing charity, um, because none of them sort of aligned with what we wanted to do and we wanted to have control of our outcomes. You know, and the mindset's always been like you know, we can give money to crisis support or whatever. It'll be a drop in the ocean. The government's giving them shitloads of money. They're already overrun. Like we're not fixing anything by doing that, like we're just looking to do something. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:And without being involved, like in this space and knowing sort of the intricacies of, like the difficulties for people to get help and like how these mental health issues are sort of arising, the general populace would be like, oh yeah, good work. Like they're donating money to lifeline, like let's support them, whereas like we wouldn't be able to sit there and be like, yeah, we're really making a difference. We're just like fuck, we're just ticking a box and taking people's money. Um, so we were like we've got to make sure that whatever we're doing is actually going to make some real change and that our money which is not going to be a great deal, cause we're only a small little business needs to be really making some change.
Speaker 3:So we, yeah, looked at the landscape and realized that, like lots of people were obviously starting conversations in our work shirts, but then they were coming back to us and be like well, where do we go? Like after that, because I've got a mate at work who's really struggling, or I'm really struggling, I don't know who to talk to. You know, like it's more than these peer to peer conversations which these shirts are creating. And for Dan and I were like fuck, yeah, like where do people go? Cause like you don't want to ring Lifeline because you're not going to, you're not about to kill yourself you know, like it's not a crisis situation, yeah, and it's like you can't.
Speaker 3:You've really had the conversation as far with your partner or your workmate or your mate to a point where you're like, look, you're just sort of like sitting here with me, like I need someone to like help me. You know like what do I do? Someone to like help me, you know like what do I do? And we just realized that the organizations that were like corporate level, like you know, tier one construction companies and mining companies. They had eap services, right, which is great. But one thing we noticed like people aren't using them, uh.
Speaker 3:And the second thing we come from a residential carpentry background and I, like I come from rural australia like no one's got mental health counseling services out there. So it's like, right, oh, how do we like remove all these barriers which currently exist, which is, you know, going and seeing a gp obviously taking time off work, getting on a mental health plan, which has its own like stigmas attached to it, like without using a better word because your health insurance and stuff are impacted. You know what I mean. So it's like mental health plan, like do I want to go on that? Blah, blah, blah. So we were like, right, let's just remove all this crap out of the way. Let's just get a phone number, hire a counselor or psychologist and get people to call them. So that was kind of you know, our um way of just being like, you know, fuck, fuck it to a degree, let's just do something different, and that's what we did. And then TAX was launched. Yeah, we took our first call on my birthday in 2020, 8th of June.
Speaker 2:Oh wow, the timing of that.
Speaker 3:I know, yeah. So it was like middle of COVID and that's what Dan has often laughed about Like we already didn't have enough going on. We thought we'd launch our non-for-profit in the middle of COVID, which was like, yeah, outrageous. But I mean, from where we started it to where we're at now, you know it must be close to 19,000 tradies, truckies, rural and blue-collar workers that have reached out to TAX and it's really important for us for it not to be another crisis or another support line, Like it's a counselling service. You know you speak to the same counsellor through your journey, Like on average people having, you know, four sessions with our counsellors.
Speaker 2:And it's free for the caller right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's free and ongoing. So, like, a big point of difference for us is that like it's quality of care over volume, so it's like we want to ensure that our counsellors aren't burning out. So, like the system that's been designed is that you know, 45 minutes of um care delivery, 15 minutes of note taking, 15 minutes of prep, you know. Then you roll into the next one. It's sort of like we're not a yeah, not a call centre or a counselling service, but it's telehealth. So text and call and then you know we're talking about how many people are actually just using text. So it's removing that barrier of actually having to pick the phone up and talk through it. So we're just being that, that first port of call for people to understand a how counseling works, but also people that know they need help and they can easily gain access to it. And it's just been, yeah, incredible where it's gotten to and where it's heading, and people again just can't believe that it's a service that's been provided for free, without government funding.
Speaker 2:So it's pretty cool it's phenomenal, it's absolutely phenomenal, and so my understanding is that you have some corporate partners who are also they'll contribute financially and then you give them back the data of the calls and the information. Is that right?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I did, dan. Conceptualised must have been end of 2020 or early 21. It was basically we realised that as an organisation, trademark would not be able to fund enough money to tx for it to scale. So it's like we can keep providing funding but it's only going to pay for like one or two um counselors. And then you know we need some donations and like we were never in the mindset of another charity, with a like rattling tins, you know down selling meat trays and fuck we. We're like. That is not us, we are a.
Speaker 5:Speak for yourself, mate.
Speaker 3:I sell a lot of meat trays.
Speaker 3:I sell a lot of meat trays with the best of them, but who does? Like? We want to have a business model that has got a revenue, model, that is not a flash in the pan, not these big events that we need to put on and we get funding. You know, once or twice a year, like we need consistent cash flow, um, to ensure that a we can have a set amount of counsellors on hand, plus percentage of overheads for, you know, managers, marketing, all the other stuff, uh, but we just, yeah, we can't have these big ebbs and flows of cash. So dan was like, well, why don't we do what we're doing, which is like donating money every month and we can just go to corporates and say, hey, look, you know, rather than giving us $120,000 in a lump sum, why don't you sign up for 12 months, give us $10,000 a month and we'll provide you data and impact stories in regards to the change that you're making in the community? And um, I remember that, like dan, and conceptualize this idea. We started talking about it. We'd start building out a deck and then I had this wedding in longridge and I'm on this bus heading out to this wedding.
Speaker 3:Me and my wife are sitting next to each other and there was a lady across the way, katie, who I knew from boarding school, and she just asked me how things are going, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then I told her about oh, you know, this is the next thing we're doing. And she was like oh, that's awesome. And she worked for this really big ag investment fund in Brisbane. I remember the week after the wedding she rang me up. She's like oi, I've just spoken to our directors into this thing you're doing. And I was like fuck. I was like, well, we haven't even.
Speaker 2:Not even finished yet. We're not even ready yet, like it's just not here.
Speaker 3:But that was another one of those situations where it was like a door opened. We had people who were ready to go, so it was just up for us to just get it ready, make it happen. And then the funding came in and then to be30,000 a year with monthly payments to fulfil that total financial obligation on an annual basis, and it's allowed us one to take. Take the pressure off trademark to be the sole bread winner for tx um, but also have a consistent um revenue model to ensure that we can hire. You know, I think it's about 17 people we've got over at tx now, so it's really cool oh, that's amazing, incredible yeah incredible.
Speaker 2:I love, I love just that concept. It really resonates with me about it's not quite finished yet, but if you've got interest, all the doors open or even there's a smidge of the door open like you just got to run through it. Because if you wait for everything to be perfect and set up like it would just never happen. That's the way I see it. I think you just got to give stuff a go, exactly as you have yeah, and like it was, it wasn't.
Speaker 3:It wasn't perfect and it's probably still not, like it's never going to be perfect, but it's not like it's ever-evolving right, it's just. I think that's like we were laughing last night about our high-vis shirts, like the first high-vis shirts we brought out. Like fuck, what were those things?
Speaker 2:Isn't it always the way? Yeah, sorry, go on. Were you gonna say something there, dan? No, no, no, all good um andy what about you?
Speaker 4:what are your thoughts? Oh, I just enjoyed the story, like I, you know, kind of have a couple of thoughts running through my head and the odd question that none of it is is worth delivery, because it's just highly entertaining and and and for me, um, oh, I love the energy I think that the brand brings out, and the energy that you guys bring out, so I count. This is the first of many meetings that I'll have today, but I'm no doubt my favorite one, so thank, you the energy.
Speaker 5:The energy is that like, um, it's it. It's hard because like it's funny, like people will see our marketing, or you know they'll see ads, or you know this and that They'll be like, oh, trademind's killing it. You know, see your ads and this and that it must be, things must be awesome. And like we've grown, like we've launched and you know, established, evolved and grown and all that kind of stuff. But like when people say that I'm just like the marketing, that's the marketing working right, like that's the marketing, it's supposed to all look good, like that's what's all supposed to look good, then what you don't see is, like you know the hard part, like the the all the challenges of running and growing these businesses. Like you know, I think about, like I don't reflect on the module of of certificate three carpentry joinery, where we learned how to build a mental health counseling service. That just wasn't part of that course um, so you know it's tough. And like being in the business, I talk about sometimes being in the business of mental health, which we are. We're in the business of mental health where, where, where we're like, we're thinking like problem solvers to to create businesses that are sustainable, um, to fill a hole, you know to, to fill a gap in the market. But just because we're in the business of mental health, you know like it doesn't mean that we don't struggle with our own shit all the way through the whole thing. Um, and this is like a massive part of it, because when you put yourself out there to do you know this, this kind of stuff, and andy talk about the energy that we bring, like, yeah, me and ed have brought a lot of energy to a lot of places until, like, a lot of events, we do a lot of you know public speaking and you know you do, you do like you know all the podcasts and that kind of stuff. But there's there's so many hard down, challenging parts. You know of it all and you're not immune to going through the same, the exact same challenges and stresses and everything that every other business owner goes through. It's almost like it's just a hyper focus for us.
Speaker 5:Because of the industry that we're in, because of the cause that we advocate for, you know like, yeah, you're actually surrounded by it. Like, sometimes you know you've got to really protect yourself from like stories and interactions with people because, like you know, it can be a lot like it can be a lot, a lot of times. You know and you need to sort of protect yourself. You know, in a way, from some of the stories that you hear and you know you create that space for people to talk, but you've also got to try to not take things on um too much either. So there's been a whole journey of like learning about mental health for ourselves and in our own worlds and the relationship between our mental health and and the business and the business of mental health that we're in. So it's just like weird complex little web and world where we're on our own real-time mental health journey and also building businesses that are supporting the mental health of other people. Um.
Speaker 4:So it's a total.
Speaker 4:I'm so pleased that you have shared that because I think that's maybe one of the overlooked or underlooked thing and especially if marketing does what it's meant to do and creates a shiny, pretty picture and, you know, kind of drives people to a certain product or event to then, you know, spend their hard-earned cash and that's ultimately you know part of it, spend their hard-earned cash and that that's that's ultimately you know part of it.
Speaker 4:But but then there's the under the hood, then there's the looking after yourself and the trial and error and working out exactly sort of where that sits. And I wonder, if it, if um embracing the vulnerability, if you will, um, whether there's a story that you both could share about um, about kind of where, where that is for you now, like what, what are the things that you do now to kind of check in with your own mental health? Do you have, are there practices that you can share that other people might you know, that aren't um trademarked, uh, that other people could, could maybe benefit from, or other things that you've tried that just you know you try and then they suck and then you kind of try something else. I think there could be some gold there mainly just for my benefit or for anyone else.
Speaker 5:Yeah, well, I mean, like I have, at various times throughout our journey, not done a good enough job of looking after myself but knowing that I needed to, but not feeling ready or even bothered or motivated to want to look after myself better, knowing everything, you know, but still not necessarily always doing it. And I mean, you know we were talking about the TED Talk and I know that I said to you off air before we started how that TED Talk was like, yeah, a hectic part of my life and like at the time I knew how hectic it was for me. But only in reflection now do I sort of look back and I think about that, um, and where I was at, because, like that, that that process of doing the ted talk right, it was months and months of preparation and weekends and you know, with the ted crew and writing this thing and memorizing word for word this 16 minute performance, um, talking about some stuff that you know I haven't really publicly spoken all about before um and three weeks before I took to the to the um tedx stage, I'd ended a five-year relationship and it was like essentially crying myself to sleep every night and then, like you know, getting up and doing this performance of the ted talk in my living room and getting to certain points of it and just completely breaking down and I was just going to get COVID. That was my plan the night before the TED Talk. I was just going to get COVID and I'm like fuck it, sorry, I can't do it. I'm not going to do it. And, like everyone around me kind of knew where I was at as well, ed certainly knew where I was at as well. Ed certainly knew where I was at because he had to, you know, witness it and, like you know, put up with it, I guess. But I was a shell of a man on that stage.
Speaker 5:And when people tell me, like when they look at the TED Talk, they're like, oh, it's great, it's great, like you don't see what's going on behind that. And when I look back at it, I'm like shit man. Like I talk about game face a lot with ed and like how important it is as leaders to put your game face on and just get it done. And I look at that ted talk and I'm like that is 100 percent. Like you know, that was imposter syndrome up there doing that.
Speaker 5:And like a combination of feeling like a complete imposter and a complete fraud for being up there spreading a message to the world about looking after your own mental health when I was in a hole and so, yeah, when you talk about tips and tricks to look after yourself, um, I kind of think on some of the times that I haven't necessarily done that or been motivated to want to do that, and I think that's part of the mental health journey as well.
Speaker 5:Like, sometimes you don't just want to flick a switch, sometimes you just want or need to sit in the discomfort of feeling like shit you know to, to let that fuel you or motivate you to just like experience those range of emotions, to understand how your body ticks and how your mind works.
Speaker 5:But on the flip side of that, for me, like things that I do to look after my mental health are, like you know, I like to joke about when I play indoor cricket every Tuesday night with my team Love that team, love the boys. We go and catch up. I use it like I'm about to be 35, like playing social cricket, I'm competitive, and I use that tuesday night to get my fucking demons out of me, like that's awesome. And like the guys on my team know that, like I just banter. We talk shit like and I'm probably gonna be overdrive on that because, like you know, you do these big weeks. Then you need that really outlet. So that's one of my outlets that I use. I've got a few others, but yeah, ed can talk to you a lot about looking after himself.
Speaker 3:He does a better job of it than me I suppose, like for me, it's like I can, yeah, obviously like relate with what dan said, because there's been periods through the journey where, like you're just working so hard and you're just trying to keep everything going and stuff and then, like you and your, your wellbeing like literally takes a back seat because it just hasn't been prioritized. And like when you're younger you probably feel like you're kind of invincible and you can pretty much just push it as hard as you want, it'll be fine. But I mean, yeah, like burnout uh and everything like that is obviously something that's quite real. And I kind of get frustrated when you hear these people on podcasts and stuff talking they're like burnout's bullshit, because I'm like well, fuck I. I mean it definitely is a real thing for me yeah, I would agree so like.
Speaker 3:So, like you know, there's just like small things Like my like trying to take a week off. Like you know, every quarter is kind of a thing that I try and do. Like just like book in trips with mates because before you know it, the year's just full and you get to, you know Black Friday, and then you're like, oh yeah, a bit of Christmas and then like you're back into it. So like I learnt that lesson. So I'm like right, I've got to book in some annual trips. So like we go to Fraser Island every year, me and my brother-in-law and stuff, my wife, which is really good, and then just other things. Between that is I've got a really good group of of mates at our like 5 am session. So like we'll go for a coffee on a sunday after like sunday morning after gym and um, you know track out working for a coffee on a Sunday morning after gym and you know working for a triathlon at the moment. So like I've got mates from the gym that are all doing like triathlons later in the year. So you know we're going for a big cycle on Sunday and I saw Sam this morning because like went to the 7 o'clock gym because we came home late last night and just all that sort of stuff. You know what I mean. Like even if something changes like I got home later than I normally do last night it's like not an excuse for me and or my wife to be like right, I will, we'll just sleep in and just get on with our days, like no, no, we'll still go and do our thing and like make sure that's all happening.
Speaker 3:Um, and then, outside of that's, obviously finding a really good um psychologist really has been a big thing for me.
Speaker 3:Um, because like a wife and I um together and like individually, have been and seen different people over the years and didn't really ever gel with anyone this guy here in Toowoomba and he's just been like awesome for me, because I'm very much a person of like right, tell me what I need to do, like I don't want to sit here and talk, like I need something to be, like I need to do something, like tell me what needs to happen, and he's very much like that um, so he's like he's a psychologist.
Speaker 3:He's probably more like a, like a coach, to be honest, because he like really holds you to account and um like even the last conversation we had like something was coming up again and he was like looking back on notes from like two years ago and he's like, oh fuck, there's that thing's that thing again. It's just popped up. He's like I thought we'd talked about that and so that's really good. You know that those sorts of things have been, yeah, really important just for me and my wellbeing and being able to just like continue to rock up every day really.
Speaker 5:I have a question for you, edward, because I don't know this these cycles, you're going on.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, I'm not in the Lycra yet, but yes, oh fuck. I swear mate, I'm going to be a Lycra boy.
Speaker 4:I am going to be a Lycra boy. Trademark Lycra.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, there's trademark. I've got a trademark Hang on, hang on.
Speaker 5:You are going to be a Lycra boy, I will be, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've actually got another call. I got to go.
Speaker 3:The um.
Speaker 5:I can't tolerate that. I swear, If you rock up to the office, if you rock up.
Speaker 3:I'll clip in.
Speaker 5:I'll clip in with my cleats, mate.
Speaker 2:Honestly, that's it, we both we both used to work um with and um as clients and directly with 99 bikes. So we've got, we can hook you up with some, with some good gear.
Speaker 5:Make that recommendation with his buddy, matt shervington, bloody lunchbox oh meal, a snack I think he wishes right ed.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, sure, but no it's just though, it's just those small things, um, and it's like, uh, an evolution as well. Like there'll be the next thing. It's like, um, you know, like there's this um fitness thing that's on it, um, in brisbane in august that like, um, you know he was from the gym he'd go down to and compete, so it's like all that sort of fun stuff. Like it's just the the next thing. Like you need that stuff outside of work. You just can't be married to for sure yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2:If we, um, if I was to ask you guys, I guess you you speak and hear a lot of stories and dan, it really kind of resonated with me, I think, about um hearing grace tame talk after she was australian of the year and she said about people under people didn't ever really give her enough thought around having to re-traumatize every time.
Speaker 2:She would share some of those stories, like it's re-traumatizing in a way. And then hearing other people's stories and, as you've said, I imagine you guys get so many I don't want to put, say, success stories or positive stories where you've had impacts, but also like that'd be hard to take, a big burden to carry at times. And then, as you said, your own individual mental health and as a business owner as well. I hear it Like I I'm resonating with everything you're saying and have the same ups and downs too in different ways. What's one thing for you guys, if you were to speak to leaders or a message to leaders, to business owners around, like what's one thing they could do to be supporting their people, um, in their own mental health journeys?
Speaker 3:talk about your own is probably the thing, um, that we've learned along the way, like talking stuff, and it's kind of obviously it is direct in line with the end of Dan's TED Talk. It's kind of like, yeah, the thing that sticks to mind is when Paul Green took his life a couple of years ago and you know they had everyone on the Friday night footy and had the panel and they were all talking about, you know, mental health. Like we've really got to start talking about it, and you know it's like really it's. You know, suicide, it's so bad. And you know, I came back just fucking red, I was so angry and, like dan and I were talking, it was like no one actually said anything.
Speaker 3:Like people are talking about talking about mental health. Like no one's actually talking about mental health. Like people are talking about needing to talk about it. It's like fuck, can someone just say something? And so for us, we've always been, yeah, like radically transparent is probably the term for for like how we've been going um for the team, um and talking like on these podcasts. You know what I mean. Um, like that story, yeah, like with a mate the other day, like you know, I was like you're gonna come for a swim this summer at the pool. He's like oh, I can't. I got a psych appointment at one o'clock. I'm like fuck, yes, I'm like that's awesome yeah, you know.
Speaker 3:So it's those sorts of things. Like we start talking about normalizing it just make it so much easier for people, and like we've noticed that just within our yeah, like our team, but also like our mateship groups, you know, like people are like oh yeah, I've got a psych appointment or whatever. That's awesome. You know what I mean. So I think that's the main thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5:And then I would add on to that from a business perspective. Yeah, I agree with Ed on all of that. And then also, I think one of the insights or one of the sort of learnings that I had that I picked up as a business owner we sort of both did was this idea for your people, for your staff, um, is to really invest in the in like, in setting them up to succeed in their job, whatever that looks like in any particular business or workplace. Like there's not, there's sort of no point hiring people or bringing people into the folder, into the mix, if you're not going to be committed to set them up and put the tools and resources around them for them to really succeed in their role. Um and support them like, make them feel supported and like you've got their back.
Speaker 5:Um, like people come to work, people we spend so much time at work and like works, works a real sensitive like topic for a lot of people. Like a lot of people find themselves, you know, in workplaces that are fucking awful or that you know toxic cultures or you know this kind of stuff, and it's almost like you know, like they're stuck in that relationship because they need the income, because everyone's so financially squeezed and stressed at the moment and all that kind of stuff. So like, yeah, we, I really kind of like to make sure that our staff know that we give a fuck about them because we do and like we need them, you know, and I make sure, like you know, they know that, I know that they know, we all know we need them. So, and sure, staff are replaceable, but you also don't want to have a turnstile of staff, you know like, and that's the other thing about you know, as ed, as ed was talking about last night, some of the stories he was talking about.
Speaker 5:We haven't had to sack many people. We really haven't. That's why, like, the two that come to mind are really like sort of traumatic but hilarious for us because of like, like the circumstances in which that happened. We don't want to have to sack people. That's not the go. You know what I mean and like you can really avoid that by supporting people to succeed. You know, in the workplace, but you know we've been so naive at different times and you know the way we've sort of done things. You don't want to turn style of staff, you just want to be able to set, set them up, you know, trust and build a trusting relationship and foster them so everyone can succeed. So, yeah, and and that's, and I say that in the same time as having to, you know, set yourself up for success, which is, you know, I also rarely, you know rarely do, or it's easy to forget, you know yes, yes.
Speaker 2:So often it's if we're then focusing on everyone else the customers, the team and remembering to put some energy back in for ourselves. Yeah. Awesome, awesome. Are there any other last thoughts here for you guys? For leaders, what you want to see in the workplace. Any tips around mental health for leaders, what you want to see in the workplace any tips around mental health.
Speaker 5:The one that look, it is worth reiterating.
Speaker 5:The one that Ed said honestly about leaders finding ways to show vulnerability themselves and to bring the walls down, because that's where it starts.
Speaker 5:Like that's where it starts at the top. You know, if you're one like the same thing like ed's talking about, with the boys on the rugby league panel, talking about needing to talk about mental health without actually talking about something of substance, like that is the biggest problem right now. That's the biggest hurdle to overcome, and that was the crux of the ted talk as well was like stop talking about needing to talk about it, stop tiptoeing and pussyfooting around the subject out of fear that you're going to make something worse, like things aren't great now, so like we might as well start talking about it, because you know, I reckon that's going to help other people talk about it too. So like that's the biggest thing and that's what we try to be is open and honest and sort of vulnerable on a platform like this as well. You know to talk about the real stuff and the challenges and you know not pretending like that everything's sweet all the time, because it's not.
Speaker 4:Yeah for sure, dan and Ed. Can I ask so, if we use that Paul Green example and then the panellists you know sitting there talking about, if you're, you know, a bit sad you've got to talk to someone in, in terms of a practical execution, how would you have liked to seen that conversation go?
Speaker 3:oh, I mean probably, I mean all of the the people on that panel um have been in similar situations as to paul would have found himself like stresses with, you know, work and you know being a professional athlete and stuff and just talking about, like you know, thinking about times. Like you know, I've really struggled through periods and you know this is an example of that and this is what I went and did about it. You know what I mean. So it's like very normal for us to like go and get support or talk to people about it. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:One that sticks to mind with us is like, um, we had dave shillington on the podcast. He played for the roosters and maroons and canberra and he, um, yeah, he came on our podcast many years ago and he was very vulnerable with us talking about, like, his experience when he was at the roosters and he was a young bloke, he was sort of coming off the bench, didn and had really like a consistent spot in the first grade team and, you know, was feeling a bit down and was probably partying a bit hard and, like you know, taking, you know, his frustrations out through that sort of you know, yeah, rebellious type streak, I would say. And then Freddie Fittler was his coach at the time and freddie um like saw him coming off the paddock there one day. I was just like mate, like you know what's what's going on, um, and he was like no, no, it's like I'm all, I'm all sweet, blah, blah.
Speaker 3:He's like, well, you know, I can, I can see there's obviously something going on. Like if there is something you want to chat to me about, like feel free, there's, you know, there's no worries. And or if you want to go chat to professional, you know I can give you the number of the. You know the psychologist I go and see and like shillow reckons, like in that moment, like those words who I go and?
Speaker 3:and he was just like fuck, you're brad fitler, like you're like one of the greatest devil. Like what do you mean? What do you mean? You go and see a psychologist like is that a thing? Like you know what I mean? Like he didn't say that, but he's thinking that in his head. And then he said that he went and had like three or four sessions with this dude in bondi, um, and he said like the change that made for him both personally and professionally, it was just like the biggest change ever in his life. It was like overwhelmingly positive. And then like, yeah, he's like playing for the maroons the next year signed this big contract with um canberra and like you know, those sorts of things are like fuck, yeah, that's a real story. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:And you just don't hear enough of those. You just do not hear enough of those and I don't know why. I don't know why, as a society, that we're still like, even from a media standpoint, it's not a thing. And then and it's probably elements of you know not to go into like really deep, but it's like you know politics, like you watch politicians like fuck, they've never said a real thing ever and they're just yelling and abusing each other like you know, eight-year-olds at a um, you know at a smoker shop, um, and then you've got, um, the same thing.
Speaker 3:When you watch, like you know, panel television, like there's literally one person on the panel that's there to take the piss out of someone, um or something, and make a mockery of them, it's like I'm literally someone to bully people. It's like fuck, what is this? Is this society, is it? It's like this is fucking awful, um, you know so, when you see shit like that, it kind of you're, you're like fuck, what chance do we have? Like we've got a lot of work to do. You know what I mean? It's a strange one, really strange one.
Speaker 4:Yeah, the moment you do that, then you can kind of maybe open a door and maybe they're willing to share right then and there, or maybe they're not, maybe they're going to sit on it, but either way, that they know that you're going to be available, as opposed to some basic kind of canned response you know to be able to say, to be able to say something just super generic that they read out of a read off a cornflakes box or something like that.
Speaker 2:I'm just, I'm sitting here on the edge of my seat because I feel now I'm like, oh, I haven't contributed how it's been part of my life and shared what we've the psychologists I've seen for us as a counselor like together for me independently, which I have done over the years. And then in my mind I'm like, why aren't I sharing that, like I'm part of the problem, then if you're not sharing it right, and my thought is, oh, you don't want to turn, I don't in this moment I don't want to turn that focus away from you guys, but also sitting here I'm like, no, do you know what? Absolutely like I it's probably important for me to say on this recording with, with our community. Me too, like a hundred percent. When I went through a divorce many years ago, my ex-husband suffered pretty badly from depression and I was really young when we got together, I was 21. And I had never been exposed knowingly to mental health conditions. I think I'd been exposed to them, but just not knowingly.
Speaker 2:And that was really hard as a young, really positive, optimistic person who just thought you just say, well, just switch it off, like, just get a better attitude, come on. Isn't it that simple? And obviously, as I've grown up realizing, no, it's not that simple. And and Andy and I, our daughter, we we had a miscarriage before our daughter and then when our daughter was born, she was born 15 weeks premature, so she had a 50 chance of survival and spent three, three months in hospital and that time for us was really really difficult and, and particularly when she came home from hospital, for me and he was back at work and I was very isolated and the pressure that took on our relationship. It's kind of we sit here now and go, oh, we wouldn't want to live 2017 again, because that it's a miracle. We're kind of where we are now, but I don't believe we would have been here now if we hadn't have gone to that um psychologist together.
Speaker 2:So, firstly, through my divorce, and then the two of us independently, um and as a couple and and more recently, I mean I see a coach. I haven't got a psychologist at the moment, but I have two coaches that I go to regularly for kind of counselling and emotional support. But more recently, andy, you've made some big life changes with careers and different things and through men's group you've been with and also a psychologist you're seeing. So not throwing your story in, but just openly sharing Like it's been a big part of our lives too, and I do believe the more we talk about it, the more it's just oh yeah, don't you catch up with your mate, don't you speak to people about your emotions and your energy and and what you need for your mental well-being? We all should totally yeah.
Speaker 4:There's two things on that really quickly. Um the I remember back in 2017 we went to three different psychologists. I went to one individually and then I felt like she pretty much told you to leave me yeah, I was getting led down a garden path I was not an advocate.
Speaker 4:I just remembered sitting there thinking, oh, this just doesn't feel right. I know things aren't great, but this doesn't feel like the right, the right way for me to go in the on the lifestyle, stop going there. Then we went and saw this, this other super old guy, um, and he just wasn't. He gave us a real gift of advice but then it just probably wasn't going to be ongoing. It was more like a one-night stand with that guy and then, uh, and then eventually we found someone who was just incredible. You know so it may not.
Speaker 4:I think the anecdote there is that it may not. I think you mentioned this before, ed, like it doesn't. You know, quite often it's not going to be like the first person that you meet. Sometimes you're going to have to go through a couple and be open to that and and find the one that speaks your language, find the one that resonates for you, find the one that coaches you if you want to be coached, or find the one that just tells you straight, tells you how it is, hold space acts as a mirror. And then, if you find that, then happy days and and um, and that person is out there.
Speaker 2:I reckon for us all it's just finding. It's kind of like a partner in life, like you got to find, find the right person, but that's it and the other anecdote I I just met a guy, um recently on on our trip.
Speaker 4:Actually he's a, he's a pom um and we won't hold that against him, but I might a little bit, because he does whinge. And I remember I was talking about certain things. Over the last nine months ago she has mentioned I've had a bit of a career change and probably just realigned some things in my life, because there were a couple of parts of my life I sort of went through a stage last year where I felt like the tools that I had weren't particularly sharp anymore. So over time, time, you kind of build this set of tools you know, with kind of like I play golf or I go for runs or I meditate every day or whatever they are um, they're just some of mine. So kind of went through there, felt like the tools weren't particularly sharp, like they just needed sort of you know some some looking at, I guess, and then kind of went on that journey. Only I was talking to this, this english guy about it, and he, um, he asked me he's like wow, did you like go through that whole thing and come to that conclusion by yourself? And I said no, no, no, I fucking didn't like.
Speaker 4:I spoke to plenty of people about it. I spoke to, you know, we talked about it with my wife. I talked about it with a couple of friends that I trust to have those conversations about. I went to a psychologist. I spoke to them, I went to my coach and I was part of two different men's groups. So there's lots of sounding boards in there to provide, you know, live feedback. On the idea that you would do it by yourself, I think is just a total myth, a total myth. I do it by yourself, I think is just a total myth, a total myth. I just don't for a minute believe that it's actually possible to get to that point by yourself, and it doesn't make you less of a man or less of a human thinking that, thinking that you can, because there's plenty of things out there. So yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2:This morning, when I was saying goodbye to our daughter and I told her what we were doing this morning and I said to just when you put words simply to a kid, and I was saying, oh, I'm talking to two guys who are doing some pretty special things around mental health and our mindsets and I'm like, do you know what? How important it is to speak about your emotions and not keep it all inside, because when we keep it inside doesn't, doesn't feel good, does it? She's like no, and even just talking to a seven-year-old around, how does it feel when you talk things out and who can you talk to? And that was a real proud moment for me because I thought you know what they're the conversations I think for us in our generations and the future generation, just to normalise just talking, because our parents and probably us I'm a bit older than you guys, but you know in and around our generations and our parents, that definitely wasn't on the agenda as we were growing up in school or your Cert 3 in carpentry.
Speaker 2:But that's the conversation starter now and you know, I think I just really want to thank you guys for the contribution and I know I'm sure there's big highs and the lows, as you said, but I've no doubt, and now being able to share this with our community, now, the people in our world as well, and I just really want to thank you for the incredible work you're doing and don't stop. Look after yourselves, but don't stop, because I think you're really just doing really special, important things.
Speaker 5:Thanks, anna it you're really just doing really special, important things. Thanks, yeah, it means a lot. Yeah, it's been a great chat, been great to spin a few yarns and, yeah, share some stories with you both and your listeners.
Speaker 2:It's been a pleasure. Thank you guys. We'll leave all the links so everyone can find where you are. Go and buy some funky shirts and support it all. So thank you guys.
Speaker 3:Thank you very much.
Speaker 2:Have a great day all so. Thank you guys. Thank you very much. Thank you, cheers. Thanks for joining us on the lead with courage podcast. We illuminate leadership and it's our mission to inspire and grow the leaders of today to create a better tomorrow. We hope and trust that this episode has given you some insights and joy to empower you to live your biggest, best life. If you did enjoy the episode, we'd be so grateful for you to rate and share wherever you listen to this podcast. And until next time, go and lead with courage. Luminate Leadership is not a licensed mental health service or a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. Any conversation in this podcast is general in nature and if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.