Lead with Courage
Together with your hosts Cherie and Andy Canning, you'll dive into the minds of the trailblazers, the risk takers and those who embrace life with a growth mindset .
Get ready for real and raw conversations where authentic truths are revealed, uncovering the struggles and resilience required to bounce back.
We invite you to see this podcast as your compass to embracing your own courage to live your biggest, best life!
Lead with Courage
Ana Marinkovic | Courageous Leadership | Lead with Courage
On this week's episode of the #leadwithcourage podcast, we welcome to the mic Ana Marinkovic, Executive General Manager of Small Business Bank at NAB.
Born and raised in Serbia, Ana's path to Australia was anything but simple, as she shares with us stories from her past, and her they shape approach to Life and Leadership.
As the conversation moves to the workplace today, Ana shares with us her perspective on the power of diversity, inclusion, and personal growth.
Ana shows us how we can build a robust support network for mental and emotional health, as well as creating a more successful and collaborative work environment.
Ana Marinkovic
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Until the next episode, we hope you live and Lead with Courage!
Cherie and Andy x
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Luminate Leadership is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.
Hi, I'm Chloe Canning. Luminate Leadership acknowledges the traditional custodians on the land which we record as podcasts the terrible and the agorapy. We pay our respects to Elder's past, present and imaginary.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Lead with Courage, the podcast that celebrates the bold and inspiring stories of leaders making a difference. We're your hosts, andy and Cherie Canning, and together we'll dive into the minds of the trailblazers, the risk takers and those who embrace life with a growth mindset. On today's episode of Lead with Courage, we welcome the Executive General Manager of Small Business Bank at NAB, the wonderful Anna Morinkovic. In her own words, anna says it's a privilege to lead Australia's biggest small business bank, where her and her team look after the financial needs of over one million business owners across Australia. Anna is a lifelong learner, a global citizen and a passionate advocate for diversity, inclusion and equality of opportunity. We're thrilled to welcome Anna to the conversation today, where she shares about her own life and leadership journey and her leadership principles and what it means to her to lead with courage. Welcome, anna.
Speaker 3:Anna, thanks so much for joining the Lead with Courage podcast today. I'm stoked that you're here. To be honest, I know we've been introduced through some colleague and mutual friend, aaron. Shout out to Aaron. Thanks for putting us in touch and welcome to the Lead with Courage podcast.
Speaker 4:Thank you so much, andy, and thank you Sherry.
Speaker 2:Pleasure. Thank you for being here, Anna. One question we'd love to ask all of our guests when they come on for a conversation is what does lead with courage mean to you?
Speaker 4:Many things, sherry, I think doing the right thing when it's hard or at a personal cost.
Speaker 4:Speaking up when it's much easier to keep silent, making a decision to spend most of your time managing downwards instead of upwards in a large corporation. It's about telling the truth, and I find it extraordinary how much buffering, prepositioning and immunizing is required in Australian corporate culture every time any sensitive topic gets raised. It's also about owning your difference and mastering the art of not belonging, and I talk a lot about that, coming from a very diverse background. It's also about standing up to toxic cultures, admitting that you personally also need to change. It's also about seeking feedback from those that you don't necessarily get along with or do not like, as you have to be able to work with anyone in this time and age. I think it's also confronting your childhood traumas and not allowing them to define you, both personally or professionally, and how you show up or indeed impact your leadership shadow. So it's about stepping into your weaknesses and neutralizing them, also knowing how to say no. So I'd say there is a lot in leading with, and that's why so few do it. Do it well.
Speaker 2:Yes, there's so many elements there or areas to unpack and I think you're right about so many Don't always do it well or the consciousness, and even when you said then about your trauma and the backgrounds, not everyone does the hard work, I suppose, to understand what that is for them and how it's showing up in the shadows. Yeah, beautiful, thank you. Thank you. Speaking of growing up, I think that's one thing I'm really interested, or we're really interested, to hear more from you about immigrating to Australia. You've got quite a journey and a story there. If you could just share with us about growing up in Serbia and coming out to Australia.
Speaker 4:Yes, it is some story.
Speaker 4:Look, I grew up in a really idealic environment for the first 10 years or so of my life and in many ways I think that that strong foundation living in a safe and really secure community in Eastern Europe gave me that sense of confidence about the world.
Speaker 4:I also grew up in the context of communism, whereas, you know, ideas and equality of opportunity and receiving and contributing according to your ability and according to your needs was instilled with me from kindergarten onwards, as it was all to all the children in Eastern Europe, and that part of my life was very much in the context of living very structured, very defined, within the context of a very defined ideology, but also in a family environment that was extremely loving and also privileged.
Speaker 4:And then, of course, all of that got interrupted by some very dark clouds of civil war, living in bomb shelters without food, electricity or running water, which you kind of get used to. It taught me that what they taught me is that deprivation is actually much easier to bear than fear, that constant and consistent fear that your loved ones may be hurt or killed. You know that has been a dark cloud in my consciousness long after I actually escaped that environment, and my parents ended up making a very difficult decision to get me out of the country when I was still very much a child, and then I didn't see my parents or my brother until much, much later, when I was 19 years old and then out of the country.
Speaker 4:But I do think that those experiences end up defining you, more so than any university degree, any job title, any accomplishment can possibly do, because they actually really shape how you think about the world and what is fundamentally important to you and also what you value becomes quite non-negotiable, and how you show up in terms of authenticity becomes quite obvious. And I think therein lies my diversity that marks you beyond gender or education or ethnicity. My diversity lies in that lived experience of a lack of choice. I only had one road, which was the less travelled one, so road of resilience and hardship in that most brutal sense you can possibly have.
Speaker 2:Just so impossible to imagine if you haven't experienced something like that. How long were you in Australia before you saw your family?
Speaker 4:I was in Australia for seven years before I saw my family again, and for many of those years that you didn't even know if they were alive or not.
Speaker 2:Wow, and yeah, I mean, it's obviously context. It's not like you've got a mobile phone and you can watch that people.
Speaker 4:This is kind of in the H3 internet Connectivity.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes, yes, exactly, and I think it's from the timeframe of the war. It makes sense, but when people hear this in today's day and age, it's just a reminder that that wasn't the accessibility.
Speaker 4:Longer distance phone calls were incredibly expensive and cost prohibitive. Well, even if you potentially could get through those very, very short conversations, Wow, one piece I actually.
Speaker 2:I read that you posted on International Women's Day about and I've heard you speak about this on other things, I've listened to you speaking about your grandma and that she was such an important role model in your life and if you, if you care to, I'd love to hear a little bit about the, the impact and I guess the yeah, the presence of your grandma and what impact she had on you.
Speaker 4:She taught me what strength means, and again Traveling on that less traveled road at a time when, obviously, women in the Balkans did not have significant rights. She was a woman that was pursued highest levels of education. She was very, very active in the political movements in the 30s and 40s, she was one of the first women in the Balkans to get divorced and she was someone that pursued a meaningful contribution to society her entire life and even in her 80s, when her life was completely upended, she took it with grace and and was able to continue her charitable and philanthropic efforts through supporting a huge number of refugees from all over the Balkans, regardless of their ethnicity or or religion. And I look at her and I always, you know, when I think through those difficult moments, my point of reference has always been her courage, her achievements and also knowing that I was loved limitlessly by someone like that and I miss her. I miss her every single day of my life.
Speaker 4:And how lucky was I to have had such a role model from a very early age on. I mean, one of the first things that she said that I actually remember her saying to me as a child was you know, usually your grandmothers tend to you know, do more, more domestic kind of learnings with you, particularly in the Balkans. Whereas what I learned from my grandmother was her saying to me over and over again the most important thing for a woman is to be financially independent. And I always why she's saying that to me, you know, and yeah she, it was one of those things that just kind of stuck with me. She really encouraged education and that independence and freedom of thought, which has served me well.
Speaker 2:Yes, what an incredible role model and thank you for sharing because, yeah, it's obviously so rich and meaningful for you and, yeah, just what an incredible role model. It just definitely was, and oh, beautiful, and now you're in finance industry. How funny, I wonder. Yes, did she? Did she know that this was the path in your career, time wise? And did she know that this was where you were working in this industry for so long?
Speaker 4:Yeah, what was important to her was that I get to a place professionally where my passion and my technical expertise meets at an intersection, so that I would enjoy Friday evenings as much as Monday mornings, she used to say, just as she had in her career. So for me, given the incredible role that I have at NAB and the opportunity to work with the small business segment, which is the lifeblood of Australian economy, I see that as a blessing.
Speaker 2:Oh, so wonderful, so wonderful.
Speaker 3:So incredible. I love hearing that and I'm curious to know how, if in any way, does that link to your parent now and a very proud mum I know that you are. How does that link now to how that you engage with your children or the values that you want to bestow upon them?
Speaker 4:Look, my children are obviously living in a very, very different context, so in a very different cultural context as well, but some of those basics around having a super strong work ethic, doing the right thing even if it's difficult to do so, giving your 100% effort, having the right attitude and I am not someone that tolerates any kind of poor behavior I think those things are having commonality from my own childhood. Obviously, as I said, context is quite different and my children are growing up as most Australian children, in a level of safety, security and affluence that is not common across the world. So for me, them having that sense of gratitude and a strong desire to give back is really, really important.
Speaker 2:Beautiful, beautiful, thank you. If we go into the workplace and we've spoken about diversity and the different paths and experiences we have how do you create diversity, inclusion in the workplace at NAB and also, I guess, feedback and ideas for people in their own workplaces?
Speaker 4:Look, sherry, I think when you ask that question, it's actually important to start with the why, why, capacity and I challenge a leader to think about this around. If you're doing this to tick an organizational leadership box or because you're head of HR said you should in order to strengthen your brand, salida, or are you actually doing it because of genuine, intrinsic belief that diversity of our customer base should be represented at the highest level of organizations we work for? If it is the former, I think you will get there through quotas and few symbolic gestures and a few female hires, and that will get you to that target set at the start of the financial year on gender equality. And don't take it the wrong way, I actually think that is progress too, in the absence of anything else. But if you're looking for that true, true diversity, you actually need to look at your customer base and ask yourself how is your team reflective of what you actually see there culturally, in terms of expertise, age wise, different lived experiences? And to give you kind of a concrete example, in this, small business is traditionally a domain of first generation migrants, and I often reflect about my conversations with our customers, and a lot of those conversations actually go way beyond provision of financial products or services, because I can relate to their struggles with English language, understanding of cultural norms, barriers to entry, simply due to that lack of knowledge and experience in the Australian context, and I can tell you that those conversations are so much richer but, on a commercial side, are also so useful to me because when I'm deciding on what kind of services do we invest in to enable Australian small business to thrive, I actually have a first hand focus groups that actually go above and beyond in that communication with me.
Speaker 4:So there is a lot to be said for empathy and lived experience and I think every leader needs to be thinking about diversity in that context as well as all of the other.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and coming back to that, why? Yes, absolutely, I love that, thank you. When we're talking about you and your own leadership, I'd love to know are there any daily practices or habits that you have for yourself so you can bring your best authentic self to your leadership, to life in general?
Speaker 4:My work and my life are highly intertwined. My work has been, and continues to be, a very fulfilling and enjoyable part of my life, and I think that's really important, given how much time we all spent in the work environment. Sherry, I'm not someone that believes in creating some work. Life balance plan.
Speaker 4:I never have I believe in doing things that fulfill you and create that right environment for you and your family. I think it is super important to have self-improving goals in life and to try to get better at getting better. I think that's a skill in itself, and when you work in the arena where your expertise, as I said previously, intersects with your passions, you end up in a really good place where you do look forward to that Monday morning as much as the Friday night. And just as it's important to have that diverse team we spoke about, it's also important to have a really diverse life as well, and I'm always on the lookout for more learning opportunities, more adventures, more discoveries, more travel and the experiences that I can share with my loved ones, and I really think that that is what makes life fulfilling and enjoyable.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I thank you for sharing that, because sometimes, if I just talk from my own experience as a business owner and also a mum and someone who loves so passionately I guess I'm working with the clients directly all the time sometimes I feel like I shouldn't love working as much because you feel like the guilt of oh, and I love hearing you say it when it's so intertwined and if that intersection of what you're passionate about, what you do and it's adding value, then it's absolutely okay. So I almost feel like that's just giving me that permission that I need and I suppose you've got to give ourselves a permission. But I love hearing that from you and I really appreciate it because there's nothing wrong and in fact, isn't that a beautiful thing for people to love what they do so passionately? I love that Friday to Monday reference, so important as far as any kind of with your growth you just said there.
Speaker 2:Is there anything in particular that you're doing at the moment? Or is it reading? Is it listening? Is it people in your community? How do you? How are you currently growing yourself?
Speaker 4:I try to take out learnings from every interaction that I have. I have a large number of mentors who challenge me to be a better version of myself all the time. I read a lot, and particularly in the nonfiction space, so I believe that reading about people's real life experiences teaches you a lot and and it really allows you to think differently about how you step into some of those more complex and more challenging situations that everyone faces one time or other. Your children always teach you things, and sometimes they make me feel like I'm so old and not with the times.
Speaker 4:Of course, I try to spend real quality time with them and to have really memorable experiences as a family. I think that's really really important because I think some of those memories I know how much those memories helped me through those difficult times. In general, I think it's so important to be conscious of your weaknesses, flaws in your character, your strengths. When do you actually over index on those strengths and then they become your weaknesses? I think self-awareness. You can never be too self-aware. I think you learn about yourself all the time and I'm a firm believer in that continuous improvement approach and growth mindset.
Speaker 2:Yes, and it's so wonderful, as you said, in every interaction, every conversation, because we all have conversations in our day, whether it's with our teams, our customers, it could be with a person from the coffee shop, but wherever it is, we're constantly having conversations. So, having that growth mindset and that focus, what can I learn from this? What can I take away? What is this teaching me? I absolutely love that.
Speaker 3:That's incredible. I just reflected on what you said there and I could kind of link back to one of the other things that we wanted to talk to you about. What are some of your non-negotiables as a leader? And I feel like from the last 30 minutes or so in listening to you, I could probably list off what I think would be some of those.
Speaker 4:It's actually only one thing to be perfectly honest with you.
Speaker 3:Oh great, I'd love to hear it on my way off, please.
Speaker 4:When you ask me about what is my non-negotiable as a leader, even for myself or for my teams, of the people that I'm looking to bring into my team, it's only one thing and it's character. It might sound like a cliche, but I feel that the older one is and more experienced in life you are, I think you actually start to over-index on that integrity, a lot more so than on expertise or looking at people's previous achievements. I hire people who care, who are curious, who have super strong work ethic, who lack a sense of entitlement, who value meritocracy, who embrace change. And I'm a firm believer that you can really teach technical skills, but it's so much hard to change intrinsic values and I also value a sense of entrepreneurship as well, that thinking outside the square, ambition for very aspirational goals, collaborative approach and, I'd say, redefining all the time about what good looks like, because what we achieved yesterday and what was good yesterday is going to be average today and it's not going to be good enough tomorrow.
Speaker 1:Frankly, so when I think about, non-negotiables.
Speaker 4:I feel so incredibly lucky to have a team at NAB of some nearly 2,000 people to whom that continuous improvement is part and parcel of their DNA because that is what we're recruiting for and to have everyone on the team aligned on our purpose, why our jobs actually exist and that pursuit of excellence in our chosen field, which is unnegotiable.
Speaker 3:That's incredible. Thank you for sharing that. My ears pricked up when you said about it not being good enough, or as good as yesterday. Is that something that Cherie reminds us of? Probably just reminds me of Sometimes when I casually might just think like, oh yeah, I think it's there, I think it's good enough and it's like no, it has to be better than good enough. Good enough is not going to cut it, and thank you for that slap in the face. I really enjoyed that. That was lovely.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I had very little tolerance for mediocrity.
Speaker 3:Yeah yeah. Yes, I'm outnumbered on this panel, but it's just raising the floor attached to that I'm wondering as well. Oh no, I've lost my question. I'll come back to it because I think it'll. Oh, yes, excuse me, I remember. Now I'm wondering you talk about technical skills can be taught, and this is kind of an ongoing conversation I've had with myself over the years and I'm not clear on what the answer is, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. Do you think leaders can be made or do you think intrinsically they're born?
Speaker 4:I believe that leaders are made and they're made every single day. I think the talent and intellectual capability will only take you so far, but to, I think, to reach the pinnacle of real, impactful leadership, you need to embrace self-improvement and growth, mindset and curiosity as foundational aspects of who you are as a person.
Speaker 3:And I think that's the kind of support growth mindset part and you go back to the, taking a step back to that character and the subcategories of what it is to have good character. That kind of validates for me. I'm further along in my journey.
Speaker 2:I think, andy, if you move your head to the side ever so slightly, Anna, we'll see. These are our three values in the business, but one of them, the one that Andy was covering, is always curious, and so, yes, very much, subscribe to that growth mindset and what else, what else? And I think when you're saying about the, those standards, and that not the mediocre, I think it starts with us, doesn't it? When we're modeling that behavior and then it's setting that, that standard for others to also see as well, I think it's really important for you to look at the mirror first always yes and then reflect on others.
Speaker 4:And it stems from that idea around control, the controllables, and what has been your role in either the positive or negative outcomes around you? I'm a big believer in personal accountability and responsibility and you know that mirror analogy, if one is really open to it, I think can do wonders for one's self-improvement.
Speaker 2:And I wonder, from your take, what do you think stops people from adopting that? Looking in the mirror first.
Speaker 4:Life stops in the way. There are so many different challenges people encounter. They have families, they have commitments, they have, you know, challenging relationships. A lot of people are looking after their older parents, they have children and, you know, sometimes in order for you to have that profound reflection, build self-awareness, you need an investment into yourself, and it's not easy. It's not easy to find that time. I find that that time is actually the greatest luxury that I have, and it's also about choosing from a trade-off perspective. You know, if you have an hour or two hours spare, what do you do? Sometimes people just need to relax, they need to take the time off, they need to indulge in, you know, in different things that are not necessarily conducive to personal development.
Speaker 4:So it's a conscious choice and it's not easy to do because it's just. It's another thing led to the ever-growing list.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so true. Yet if, when we do invest, you know there's so much that comes out of it in our leadership, in the impact for our customers, if you're in business, yeah, it's just only wins, I think. But sometimes the work is hard too, isn't it? One the time and the scenario, but sometimes the work itself is not for the faint-hearted, but that's how it works.
Speaker 4:And you've got to, it's got to be the right timing for you as well, because it can be incredibly bruising. Yes, often our reflection of ourselves, or indeed the intent that we have, is not necessarily seen in the same way and your perception is reality. And when you realise that the perception is actually quite different to your intent, that's when the real work starts.
Speaker 2:Yes yes. And speaking of real work and speaking of courage, we've got a question wondering what do you think is one of the most important elements of courage you'd like to see more of in workplaces? Speaking up Speaking up.
Speaker 4:Definitely I think it's a missing ingredient in corporate cultures across industries and I think that is also evident in the continuous newspaper headlines that we see in the conduct of some of the biggest, largest, most famous brands, both here and overseas. I think that speaking up really helps establish those behavioural norms. It's a key to setting up boundaries. Failing to speak up creates those environments that reinforce themselves and they become a breeding ground for unethical decisions. Speaking truth to power is super hard, but I think it's really necessary to ensure we form meaningful, honest, authentic connections that we influence for the right decision making and fundamentally motivate change. I think it's absolutely essential to speak appropriately and within the context of the situations, and I do think that that could be done much better today.
Speaker 2:Yes, you may not want to go ahead with answering this question, but has there been a time in your career where you have spoken up and it's not ended well? There's been some big concepts, absolutely.
Speaker 4:Of course. I think that is one of the reasons why women in particular do not speak up as much, and I think that is why whistleblower programmes have become, unfortunately, the way for people to voice their concerns, because I think some corporate cultures do not necessarily encourage that kind of discourse. But at the end of the day, I think, as long as you know that you have done the right thing, as long as you can look yourself in the mirror and be okay with what you see, and as long as you feel like you've paved the way for another person to have just that tiny bit more courage to do the right thing in spite of your own personal consequences or personal costs, I think you're way ahead of the buck.
Speaker 2:That's such beautiful advice. I completely and passionately agree with you. If I'm a leader and I'm listening to this, or a business owner, I'm listening to this episode and I'm thinking to myself. You know, I want people to speak up, I want to have and I don't just mean in a whistleblower perspective, but in new ideas or what's not working but I'm not getting it yet from my team. What advice would you give a keen leader who wants their team to speak up more but they're not getting it yet? How can they create culture and create?
Speaker 4:that experience. As a leader, one of the key obligations that you have is to create an environment that is conducive to continuous learning and challenge and diversity of thought and opinion. If you are indeed facilitating that kind of culture, then speaking up comes naturally, versus an authoritarian, top-down approach that is strung together by fear. You choose the kind of leader you want to be. I would also say that people that come into your team choose you as a leader too. That's the things come together really nicely, yes, beautiful.
Speaker 3:Beautiful. It goes full circle in that way, doesn't it? You live out the integrity of your beliefs and your values in terms of the type of leader that you demonstrate yourself to be and living by those. Then, equally, you attract those people in your orbit if you like. Then it can bear fruit and go forth. I love that analogy. I've not thought of it like that before.
Speaker 4:Reputation is. At the end of the day, reputation is the most important marker of our brand.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely. Before I ask this last question, other than the kindness question, we haven't missed any other questions. Is there anything we haven't covered off? I think it's the last one. Speaking of values, Anna, and speaking about what's important to us, one of my personal values I love is around kindness. I love to ask all of our guests to share with us what is one of the kindest things someone has done for you. Hmm.
Speaker 4:Look, I have long ago learned that no one owes you anything and that it's much better to be focusing on your own acts of kindness every day as being a lot more fulfilling than looking at it from other people.
Speaker 4:I'm actually a believer in the way you show up to the world eventually rewards or punishes you in the absence of a more appropriate word accordingly, mm. So kindness is what people do for you and how they think about you when you strip away all the privileges that surround you, and to me, that is real kindness. So I'm not someone that values superficial kindness. I don't believe in people asking people how are you If you genuinely don't care about or engaging in that conversation? So I only ask how are you of people where I'm actually genuinely in the space of wanting to know, understand and have a meaningful conversation? Otherwise, I will not raise that as a part of following any kind of conversational protocol. I think underlying all of that is being considerate, respectful and also knowing when to step in in an authentic and genuine matter. And look, thankfully, I have experienced in my life countless acts of that genuine kindness that you know I wouldn't be around today, for which I am internally grateful.
Speaker 2:Great. Thank you. Actually, maybe I need to start asking people what's the greatest kindness you've done for others. Maybe I asked the other way around, but it is. It's so. It's so fascinating when people stop to think about the kindness they've received, because it isn't necessarily what we're looking for, but sometimes they're the smallest things, as you just said. Then a burn, you strip it, or the privilege away, and you strip everything away. It's it's at that core, from human to human, which I think is what's so precious about it Exactly that that you know selfless, self selfless.
Speaker 4:Investment of time, energy, effort, emotion, and that's what counts.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I love that description. I think about you know, I can think about acts of service, from kind moments that have happened in my life, but I think about the moments that I really cherish and their moments that I have an opportunity to connect with someone else, where you feel lucky and privileged enough that you get an insight into someone's soul, into what makes them tick, into what their values are, and then that connection point in there is is is just the greatest gift there is, I think, and embodied in a kindness way. Wow, that's, that's cool. Again, not another thing I'd kind of linked together and I've enjoyed this. I really love this chat today because it's helped me kind of join a few things together. Where there's, I guess, the way my mind works, there's like little columns, but now they're all sort of intertwined and linked together, which is, you know, to go full circle, back to what you were saying earlier in this episode about work and life, and doing what you love is intertwined. So thank you.
Speaker 2:The inner workings of Andy Canning's crazy brain there. I love all your calls.
Speaker 3:I'm not it takes.
Speaker 2:it takes us all, it takes all time.
Speaker 3:I'm not sure that'll make it to the final cut. To that I've never.
Speaker 4:You can repeat it. It's OK, you can repeat it.
Speaker 2:Oh, anna, we are so grateful that you have come on to talk with us today. And, yeah, as Andy said at the top of the conversation, one of our our friends is a very proud NAB team member and leader, and he's only ever spoken so highly of the leadership that that you have at NAB, and so we are just thrilled that you came on and thank you for imparting your wisdom, thank you for motivating us and bringing some different perspectives that are just so rich, and really appreciate you sharing part of your story and your passion. So thank you for being here today.
Speaker 4:Thank you, Sherry, for having me Always a pleasure.
Speaker 2:Thanks for joining us on the Lead with Courage podcast. We illuminate leadership and it's our mission to inspire and grow the leaders of today to create a better tomorrow. We hope and trust that this episode has given you some insights and joy to empower you to live your biggest, best life. If you did enjoy the episode, we'd be so grateful for you to rate and share wherever you listen to this podcast. And until next time, go and lead with courage. Luminate leadership is not a licensed mental health service or a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. Any conversation in this podcast is general in nature and if you're struggling, please see a health care professional or call Lifeline on 13-11-14.
