Lead with Courage
Together with your hosts Cherie and Andy Canning, you'll dive into the minds of the trailblazers, the risk takers and those who embrace life with a growth mindset .
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Lead with Courage
Andy & Cherie | Empathy is a Super Power | Lead with Courage
On this week's edition of the #leadwithcourage podcast, we have a special episode for you!
Andy and Cherie get together and talk about a 7 letter, 3 syllable, often misunderstood word, but absolutely essential SUPER POWER called Empathy.
They talk through some real-life examples of what Empathy is, and what it isn't, and how showing empathy can create an environment where people feel safe to express themselves and how it contributes to deeper understanding amongst each other.
They discuss 'empathy misses', as well as different concepts and frameworks of empathy, such as a 'radical candor' and 'tactical empathy'.
Brene Brown's Empathy Misses
Daniel Goleman's 3 Types of Empathy
Chris Voss - Never Split the Difference (Tactical Empathy)
Kim Scott - Radical Candor
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Cherie and Andy x
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Luminate Leadership is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.
Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to the Lead with Courage podcast. You've got Andy here, you've got Cherie there and, for those that are on audio right now, you wouldn't be able to see our beautiful faces. Well, one of our faces is beautiful that's me, of course and for the others, on video, then, you're enjoying both of them. So feel free to subscribe on our YouTube channel and you can see our faces as well. So, anyway, we're here today to talk about super power, the biggest super power in the workplace today, and what we'll absolutely carry over for the next decade, at least, until we re-benchmark and come up with a new superpower, or maybe it'll just be this one, but today it is empathy. And, cherie, you are the empathy queen and proudly an empathetic woman and proudly a human. Maybe you can talk to us a little bit about what empathy is.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you, yeah, I don't think the need and the skill of empathy is going anywhere. In fact, I think the more complicated and challenging this world is, the more and more empathy will come to the forefront. To me, I guess, from a definition perspective of empathy, it's all about the ability to see something from someone else's perspective, or, as we would more commonly say, is to walk in someone else's shoes and experience what that is like. For me, I think what I'm saying about the decades and it probably won't go anywhere.
Speaker 2:Whenever you look up anything at the moment, like I read a great book recently, head and Heart Leadership that was in the four heart criteria of what kind of attributes of a great leader If you read anything from Brene Brown, it's all about empathy. If you look at Patrick Glensione talks about hungry, humble, smart and in that, smart being emotional intelligence. That empathy is one of the five elements of emotional intelligence, not just those experts, but if you speak to illuminate leadership as well, we agree. I think emotional intelligence is possibly the most important skill for now and the future of work. Especially, there's more automation, there's more that the technology is taking over in our workplaces. So what are we left when the technology takes some of those mundane kind of what would you call them, I guess like transactional jobs in our world, then what are we left with Humans? What are human skills is to be able to connect, and having emotional intelligence and empathy being a major part of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's really really well put and I'm grateful actually that we got together when we did 12 years ago. If I go back on my own empathetic journey, like empathy, was not something, did you say pathetic journey. Pathetic? Yeah, Empathetic or pathetic, not sure which one. Some days one, some days the other. I look back in terms of like, I guess what you're exposed to in life and behavior that's modeled and certainly growing up.
Speaker 1:For me in my household and through most of the maybe mentors or role models that I had in life and parental figures, like empathy wasn't really a thing, not something that I could, not something that was ever spoken about, but even the way it was acted like. It was very much, certainly, in my view, and probably hence why I kind of came to the workplace, I guess, and even the human race, with a bit of a shortage of skills when it came to what empathy is and if I can talk even a little bit about my own journey there like it wasn't until I read a book I think it was about six years ago now and it explained empathy in just a language that, for those who would have heard other podcasts, you're probably aware by now that I'm more of the left brain side of looking at things, I'm analytical, I'm logical and it's don't always attach a huge amount of emotion to what's happening. So empathy for me was sort of like I just didn't really understand it, to be honest, and really know it was a thing. And I was reading this book in this role that I was doing and one of the things we would do a lot was we'd negotiate with suppliers or internal stakeholders in terms of things, and it was basically like the number one rule of negotiation was practice empathy. It's not until you can, kind of and bearing in mind this is a little bit outcome based in terms of we want to get this outcome or we want to achieve this KPI or OKR in our business, so therefore show empathy.
Speaker 1:But it was a book called Never Split the Difference from an old FBI hostage negotiator, chris Foss, that's it, and he talked about tactical empathy. Now, I know that the word tactical, attached to empathy, is sounds like a little bit of an oxymoron because those more right brain leading and those more naturally empathetic humans like you standing across from me in the screen here, you know, sort of looks at maybe the word tactical and just be like, oh no, like it should. Just, you know it comes down to it.
Speaker 2:I remember you, yeah, I remember you told me that term and I initially was like what? And I just thought, well, that's so disingenuous. If you've got to be tactical about it, then how are you actually feeling? But I've got on to a different perspective from that because it is like you look at that tactical empathy. It's almost like step one of empathy in a way.
Speaker 2:You know Daniel Goldman, who wrote the book on emotional intelligence. Literally his word he uses is so similar and it wasn't until I kind of saw his work and I went I reckon you're onto something, is he calls it cognitive empathy? So it's really just understanding mentally oh, okay, you must feel this. So that's how you go, whereas I probably connect to level two and three of empathy, if you like, or style two and three, which is emotional empathy and empathic concern. So when someone's hurting, I'm hurting, whereas someone's hurting you go oh, they're hurting, okay, I get that now Whereas other people feel the pain with them and there's no wrong or right. But I think that's that tactical, tactical, cognitive empathy. And you know what, if that's all people experience, that's still more than sometimes what we see in workplaces and relationships.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's, it's such a such a good point and it's a difficult, you know, string to thread through a needle, I think, because it wasn't until I remember specifically where I was, like I was reading that book, I was loving it and I was on a trip from my old job.
Speaker 1:I was in Tasmania and I remember I was driving from Bruni Island to the middle of Hobart to head home and I was listening to Daniel Goldman's interview or podcast or whatever it was, via a podcast that he did with Oprah where he was talking about different levels of empathy and I genuinely like that level one is the most Kind of that I felt like I could organically experience.
Speaker 1:So it was very much like, okay, that person looks like they're hurting, insert response here, and and for me that's kind of it sounds so clinical and I'm a little bit I'm a little bit ashamed of saying that that's how I Would see the world as a default. It's sort of like, okay, I need to do something. What is it? And you know, you kind of see it with grief, right, like some people respond with just open arms and they lean into the emotion Of it. Others withdraw that I don't know what to say. They avoid the person, others, you know, kind of go go a completely different aspect and they maybe go a bit over the top or they try and fix it, or whatever it may be.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I'd love to go into a bit of that in a minute actually.
Speaker 1:Yeah, beautiful. Well, yeah, why don't we?
Speaker 2:Keep going, but for you, like. But I really I'm giggling and smiling at you because I know this experience for you, but also it was so real and it's so profound, like you know, just that it's.
Speaker 1:If I talk about it in a work related sense or if you're, you know, kind of, I guess, talking alongside a client or a supplier or Something like that, and then you know they Say something that that's totally I don't know. Maybe it catches you off guard or whatever it may be, or, but it's a moment of vulnerability like I think in the past, prior to learning this, I wouldn't Naturally probably react in a in a really empathetic way. I'd sort of be dismissive or whatever it may be. But it could be something like oh, this happened the other day and Now I just know that it triggers a response of me and it's more. The good news is that I think that you can train yourself to to naturally move up the levels and that it Happens organically as opposed to it being tactically. But for some it might be the place to start. Where it happens tactically, it's like that person is showing vulnerability. They need emotional support. Okay, this is how I can apply it through empathetic comment here. That sounds like it would be really hard, are you?
Speaker 2:okay, you know like it. It just starts there with me.
Speaker 1:Thank you for sharing that. Like there's no fixing, there's no, there's no, nothing is just creating that safe space for them to Say what they are and I sort of that. That for me, now, that's that's. I'm proud to say that I've done a lot of inner work in order for that to be a natural part of my life now that I hopefully don't run away too much from those moments of Kind of like where they're a little bit more uncomfortable Maybe, and you have to lean into the emotion of it to meet someone where they're at, but but they're the first introduction, the tactical empathy, the Cognitive empathy, if you will.
Speaker 1:It is for a lot of people maybe that are a little bit more Emotionally special, like me, for example, that they might need to not just driven through that lens, you know, like that's not the the go-to, it's yeah, yeah, I love it.
Speaker 2:And because it's it is so true and it would be so relevant for so many people, I I've got so many thoughts and ideas and you know we talk a lot about empathy in our workshops as part of our emotional intelligence workshop, but also an out-and-out empathy and a lot of the coaching and things we do as well. But I had a really proud moment yesterday and it was a story you told me and I thought, well, we're doing a good job. I think, you know, we're definitely not perfect, we're not perfect parents, but we're on the right track. And you came home yesterday and and some friends of ours had have had some absolutely, absolutely tragic, tragic news as a result of this awful war happening in Israel and and we shared it with our daughter, who's almost seven, because it's her friend her little friend's uncle Tragically passed away, was was murdered in this war and Well, you can see who the empath is here, because I can even hardly get those words out, like it is absolutely Destroying me knowing this pain that this family of friends of ours are going through, and I didn't want to, we didn't want to Share too much of it with her because she's so young, but at the same time, just to understand something's going on for her friend.
Speaker 2:And what did you tell me? Yesterday she saw our friends and her little friend and and the mom and she what did? She went up and said I'm really sorry, is that? What? Can you tell the story, because you were there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah, she did. She went up and said I'm really sorry it that. She proceeded to talk about how, you know, a couple of people have died in her life, such as a hundred year old and a 95 year old, and they were really close to her and and that was her, you know, trying to show some maybe empathic concern as well in that way, or maybe not but more my point there was the fact that our almost seven-year-old Unprompted not so much her then sharing her own Moments of her, which I thought was very cute.
Speaker 2:It was very cute to hear that. Yeah, the story you relayed back to me is that she went up to our friend and she said I'm really sorry to hear About what's happened in your family. That's really sad, and just the fact that she went and said that unprompted, and then I do love that. She wanted her to know that she wasn't alone, because she proceeded to tell our friends that my dog had recently died. Meanwhile it's my dog from my previous marriage that I haven't seen. And then she she proceeds to tell you, dad, I've had two people close to me die. And you said, oh, unbeknownst to me. And she said, yeah, they're in a picture in my bedroom, gans and Pa, which are her great, great grandparents on my side of the family, which was really beautiful.
Speaker 2:But the point I make is just to me that was empathy, that was the empathy through a kid, you know, hearing that someone had an absolutely tragic experience and not being afraid to lean into it and and say a few words. And I think, um, you know it's worth crediting Brene Brown here for a minute, but I know that she's kind of coined the phrase empathy misses and we can get it wrong a lot, I think you know people try to connect and try to relate with empathy, but we might not always have the right words and I think one of the reasons that people try and do this is or fail to do it well, and it's the fear and the overthinking in some way, because we go. I don't know what that feels like. I don't know what it feels like to lose a brother in a war One. I don't have a brother and two. I haven't been exposed to that kind of environment so I couldn't possibly know how it feels. But that's where we get it wrong, because empathy is not connecting to the experience. Empathy is connecting to the emotion that underpins the experience. So, for an example, when you and I had Chloe and we're in hospital with a premature baby, people who had had kids in Niku were easy. They knew exactly what to say, how to say it. But people who had never had that experience they kind of a few of them. They tried, but I would say there was some pretty good empathy misses back then.
Speaker 2:What people said and often didn't say, people wouldn't say anything at the fear that they've said the wrong thing. But often actually not saying anything at all is the empathy miss and knowing that if you get it wrong, it's not a one-time wonder, like you come back and you go. You know what? You shared something with me yesterday that was really big for you and I just didn't respond in the way that I should have and I'm sorry. That was really important and I thank you for sharing that. That's okay, that's your real time, but you know what I mean. Like I think people get so scared. They're like oh, I didn't respond or I said the wrong thing. Well, guess what, go back and have another conversation Like it's not over, it's okay to clean it up, it's okay to circle back, and in fact, it's not just okay, it's really critical. I think that I think on that too.
Speaker 1:Sorry to stop that train of thought, but maybe we can talk as well about what empathy misses are and kind of what they look like. I remember sort of my first. I mean I've missed with empathy more than I've hit in my life and I probably will be in a deficit for as long as I'm above the ground.
Speaker 2:Especially with that attitude.
Speaker 1:Yes, maybe Also, maybe just being real we talk about Chloe in hospital. I have quite a fifth in memory. After we went home, or we were on the way home and we stopped by after being discharged from, chloe was still in hospital, we were on the way home and we went by baby bunting you know to get-.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was day five, day five, so that was day five. I was discharged from hospital and it would be the first day that we'd have to leave the hospital to come home and be apart from her, and that was one of the hardest days of my life, for both of us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. And remember walking into baby bunting and we bought a whole lot of baby stuff and one of the things was, I think, a double breast pump, if my memory serves me correctly.
Speaker 2:To get that it was the highest end pump you could get because I needed to express at least eight times a day. I'd have to put my alarm on at nighttime to wake up through the middle of the night to express.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'd give her one mil every two hours so that she could vomit it up every eight hours and start again. And the expression no use crying over spilt milk has never been more real than sort of seeing how labor-intensive it is to get milk, especially if it's not coming particularly quickly, and then spilling it at a different stage as well. But that's while. That was a really hard time and an interesting story, probably not for you to circle back that when we go into baby bunting and we're in that section-.
Speaker 2:Sales attendant.
Speaker 1:For whatever reason. Yeah, it was at the sales attendant. Yeah, I was about to blame it on some shopper, but let's go with the sales attendant and it's sort of like what are you after, what are you looking for? And we said, oh, we want this. And it's like, oh, you know, I don't know how it came up. But then, yeah, our baby's still in hospital.
Speaker 1:And I remember she put her hand on her heart. She said, oh, I am so like. Oh, all my babies have come home, or something to that effect. I am so lucky. And I remember just having this reaction inside of me and being like well, we feel like we're lucky too. Our baby survived the birth. She's doing really well. Now it's gonna be a long journey ahead. But who says that we're not lucky? And I know that, like I understand now that that is the definition of an empathy mist, because she didn't necessarily mean that we weren't lucky, but for her view she was luckier than us, if you like, and then wasn't able maybe to bridge the gap in that moment, to provide whatever, you know, whatever validation or support there, but instead just turned it internally and being like oh my.
Speaker 1:God, I'm so lucky, and yeah and anyway, that's my butchered version of what I've seen. No, not at all.
Speaker 2:Not at all, and that is the prime example where she did not consider the thoughts or the emotions of the other person at all, and this happens so often, you know. I think some other empathy misses and this one happens a lot. There's an incredible little video. If you go and type in, it's not about the nail, but it's a great video around how we try and fix things. And, without being too sexist here or generalist, this can often be a male to female perspective at times yeah, we don't need to watch it now, but it is the, you know, the perspective of sometimes. People just want to share, they just want to get it off their chest, they just want to talk. They can go into fix it mode so often, oh, this is what you need to do, this is what you should do, or what I would do is like whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm just asking for you to listen, I don't need you to tell me what to do, and I think that's a good one. Like, actually, that was something you and I learned pretty early on. I think it's quite a practical tip for people, because this used to be a challenge for us, a really major challenge, I think, and I remember I don't know where we got it from, but you started to say to me when I'd start expressing and talking not expressing the milk, expressing my feelings and expressing my thoughts and you'd say Shes, what is it you need from me right now? Would you like a solution? Or do you just want me to listen? And you'd say it in a calm voice, not in a what do you want from me right now? What is it Like? It was not that kind of perspective. It really was like what would you like from me? How can I help? And that is probably from a practical perspective, whether that's partner, whether that's in leadership.
Speaker 2:To me, that is a game changer question, because sometimes, actually, you are stuck and you go. You know what I actually need an idea, because I'm just in this negative loop in my own mind right now and I can't get out. Or you know what? I just need to get this out and I've just got to get it off my chest, get it off my desk and thanks Taylor Swift to my head. But just do that and get it out so that then it's, I just can get it off. So does that do you? What do you think? Now? I'm just distracted. I can't believe I just sung Taylor Swift, and so I'm ruminating on that. But what are your?
Speaker 1:thoughts. Love and the Haze is the song that you're referring to. I feel, yeah, you're totally right. And look to be honest, maybe that unintentional revelation of the what do you need from me right now came from, or probably just years of frustration in terms of being like you have a nail in the middle of your head. I know how to fix it. Why don't you listen to me, fix it for you.
Speaker 1:And then sort of understanding, maybe through some other work we were doing as well, just to understand that maybe it's not about fixing it, maybe it's about listening and just kind of giving a safe space to vent and whatnot. And I think now, looking back on that, that was probably elevated in time our relationship to another level where we can have that efficiency of candor and maybe not every relationship out there has that. We've worked hard to get that and we don't always nail it part of the pun, but that was one in particular that we used and we still implement now, where it's a little bit like I just and it might even come from me where I come back and I'm like I just need to vent. I'm not after solutions, I don't need coaching, I don't need questions, I just need to say what I say and then it'll get me to where I need to go. Because I think then the real power is when the revelation comes from the person themselves as opposed to someone else telling them. Because I think when most people start talking, it's like they especially if there's a particular problem that they're coming with or a particular challenge that they're coming with.
Speaker 1:When most people start talking, they generally have the answer inside of them and they've, in a way they're subconscious, even if they're not aware of it. They've made a decision as to where they wanna go. They just want validation for it. And the best, the easiest part to get to that validation is just to give them a safe space for them and a bit of runway for them to kind of go on and for them to take off and get to, and the loop, if you will, in terms of the listening, is just letting them get to that place.
Speaker 1:It's like for those on the video right now you can see it's just a circular motion. It's like the. I went here and I went on this entire journey and I got back to the start and now I realize what I need to do. And for someone's gonna take 10 minutes and for someone's gonna take 10 hours worth of therapy. But either way, it's just part of that cycle and that journey. And I think in our relationships, if we can have the grace to maybe have more candor in that way and be able to say what do you need from me right now? Do you want some solutions, or are you just have a blockage out now and you need some new strategies to get to where you need to go? What do you just want me to listen, then that can fast track that empathy, if you will 100%, and I think that to me they're beautiful solutions and strategies to the fix it.
Speaker 2:Trying to be the fixer, empathy, miss, beautiful. I think there's a couple others that really jump out and you hear them in the workplace and you hear them in friendships and relationships as well. There's the old story topper, and I think in some ways our almost seven year old was an example of this and she's off the hook because she's seven. But what we will do is, and what we can do as humans, is we want to connect, so we want to share, we want someone to know we've had a shared experience or something similar, which, on so many levels, is really powerful when people know they're not alone. It's what we need. But sometimes, if we're not conscious of it and not aware of the timing or the delivery or the intention behind our story or connection, it can come in like a story topper. So, for example, if someone else had had a preemie baby, for example, like with us, or if someone else got made redundant from their job, you could say hey, andy, thanks for sharing that, you've just been made redundant. I actually was made redundant last year and I've been through a lot of it too. So if you ever want to chat about it, I'm here. Great, I'd say that's a full tick right, because you're expressing to someone you've had a shared experience, you're there for them. What we can do, though, is go. Oh yeah, well, last year, on the 29th of March 2020, actually I got a phone call from Flight Center on the same day as my husband and we were both stood down from our job at Flight Center, and then what happened to us was blah, blah, blah insert my 20 minute story here and that is why I think people go wrong is then you just jump in with this unsolicited piece of information or story which can feel for the other person almost like the story topper or the one-upperer, and it's not always ill intended, but it can get in the way, and that happened for us. I recall a lot. I think I probably learnt that one when we're in hospital, because you'd have all these people, I think, trying to connect with you, but really, what they were doing is just wanting to insert their own story, and, at the time, I didn't have capacity for it, and so, yeah, that was a bit of a one.
Speaker 2:I think Brunay talks about this empathy versus sympathy and how we make that a major miss where connecting on empathy is not feeling sorry for someone. Sympathy disconnects and empathy connects. So if we're going oh, like, oh, that happened to you, oh, so sorry, like sorry to hear about it and not in a condescending way, but it's almost this, it is a disconnect. Oh, that's sorry, you have to deal with that. But if you're like, oh, wow, thanks for sharing with me. That would be difficult from a genuine care and curiosity from their perspective.
Speaker 2:So, just getting the difference from sympathy to empathy, what are a couple of the others? I think one or two is the whole like the shaming. So, for example, I can see that I've done this with you in the past and it's not one I'm proud of. But, for example, if you come home, let's say, you say, oh, you're sharing something vulnerable, you're sharing something difficult, let's say from past job in years gone by, and you're like oh, you know, I was in this presentation or I was in this meeting, and then I did this and I kind of made a mistake and I was really embarrassed. And then if the person, I guess, puts ads to the shame, they're like what did you? Why weren't you more prepared? Why didn't you do it? And so it just adds then to this shame spiral for the person who had the courage in the beginning to open up about the problem and they've been vulnerable. And then we've had an empathy miss because we're like, oh, I can't believe you did that. And so there's a few more and I encourage people to have a look and have a read of them.
Speaker 2:But they're a key couple and but I do go back to that whole empathy is connecting to the emotion. That underpins the experience and I really believe this is an area that we can all work on and that is emotional literacy, because if you think about it, like you said, being in your household, empathy wasn't necessarily something in most. I'm in my 40s you're almost there Our parents generation. Talking about emotions is not a normal conversation and I certainly didn't learn about emotional literacy at school. But if you ask most kids now, what are they learning in school? Do they have breathing and mindfulness? Do they talk about the emotion monster and what feeling are you feeling today? They absolutely are learning this. I remember when Chloe was in kindergarten and one of the things that check-in in the morning they'd hang up the bag, fill up their water bottle and then they'd pull out the color from the jar that represents how they're feeling today and that was normal behavior.
Speaker 2:But in our world, anyone who's in the workplace now that was not necessarily how we spoke in our upbringing, so to say to connect to an emotion that someone's experiencing. I guess the challenge for us to be good with empathy is we need to know what emotions are, because we do this quiz when we talk about empathy, and I do this little quiz with people, I say you've got a minute to write down in groups so that more brain power in the group. Write as many emotions as you can in one minute, and well, maybe 90 seconds, whatever it is, and people come up with about 20. And it's fascinating because they're like oh, we're kind of stuck. Now you get the big ones, like, if you know the movie Inside Out, what are the five emotions in Inside Out, andy?
Speaker 1:Joy, sadness, anger, fear and disgust.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that phase, disgust, yeah. So they're the five. Like the Dalai Lama did some work with a man called Dr Paul X-Men and they basically came up with the Atlas of Emotions. And if you think about an Atlas, it's got continents and those five you've just listed are the five continents of emotion, and so every other emotion we experience as a human comes in under one of those five. But then if we're angry, do we just go. I feel angry, like is there not a more nuanced, appropriate word that we could use for a five-year-old angry, sad, happy, fine. But for adults, like we need to be able to nuance those words and I do just think understanding the meanings of these words is phenomenal. Like even the word jealousy and envy, like we use oh I'm so jealous People, oh I'm gel hashtag, jealous, whatever. Like what is jealousy versus empathy, envy? Do you know the difference I was putting on spot here?
Speaker 1:Jealousy versus envy.
Speaker 2:Mm, because I reckon people use these words all the time. Normal words, right? Oh, I'm so envious, I'm so jealous.
Speaker 1:No, I don't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, another do I, but no, I'm only kidding.
Speaker 1:Thanks for that note.
Speaker 2:Yeah, on that note, let's wrap up. No, but my point is right. We use these words as humans, as adults, but we don't actually know the definition of them. So how can we truly? And to go back to the difference of those two as a prime example, jealousy is when something between two people is there's risk of it being removed or changed. So, for example, I could be jealous of the time you're spending with the dog, because now it's getting in the way of our relationship. Or I'm jealous of the amount of golf you might play, because then that gets in the way of our time we spend together. But envious is not about what you have or what might impact the relationship that we already have. Envious is something someone else has that you desire, that you don't already have, whereas jealousy is almost the fear of something going. So I'm envious of that car that that person has. Or I'm envious of the holidays that they go on, but I'm not jealous of their holiday because I didn't have that to begin with. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:It does make sense. I heard on a podcast the other day that envy is. Two people were talking and one person has a coach and he was saying how envy his coach was saying to him envy is only allowed. You can only have envy if you envy all of it, if you want all of it. So you can't just you look at someone who's a billionaire and you look at their life, for example, and you can't just envy that one boat or that one car or the money.
Speaker 1:You know you have to envy all of it that it took to get there the highs, the lows, the struggles, the marriage breakdowns, the trauma, whatever it may be. And I thought that was a good way of looking at envy, because I think it's easy to peer over the fence and be like, oh, that looks nice, but it's not always unless you're willing to go all of it. It's a good witness test as to what that looks like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is, and I guess I use the jealousy in envy, not because it's necessarily something we always talk about in the workplace, but it's just signifying to us emotional literacy. They're words we use all the time, yet do we actually use them correctly? Now, I'm not about to walk around and listen to people's accurate use of those two words and give them feedback like. It's not about that, but it's about us going. If we truly want to be able to show empathy towards someone, to connect to an emotion, then we need to know what our emotions are. And if I go back to maybe us having Chloe in the hospital, one of the things I would often say to people is well, if you connect to things like fear and hopelessness, think about the one time in your life where you felt so hopeless and so uncertain. That's what you connect to. They might not have been into a NICU before, but everyone's gonna have the one time in their life where they felt really helpless. So connect to that emotion and that might be a little insight into what I'm feeling and experiencing, the beautiful reference that I would say to people. If someone wants to learn more from this emotional literacy, there's two books that I highly recommend. I just think they're phenomenal. One is like a guide and a bit more like a dictionary, if you like, and that is Brene Brown's Atlas of the Heart, and that's where that envy, jealousy thing came up for me when I was reading that. So Atlas of the Heart is brilliant and she's got a TV show on it as well. And the other one and another absolute expert I think I love following her work and she just talks about this space is a lady called Dr Susan David. So she's got a book called Emotional Agility and they both speak about emotional literacy. So, yeah, I mean, this is definitely work that we put into our EQ sessions and our workshops with our clients as well. But if somebody's not in one of the workshops right now and they want to learn something that they can, then yeah, those two books I highly recommend. They're really great resources.
Speaker 2:And I guess, just looping back, we talked about cognitive empathy and tactical empathy. Then there's emotional empathy and then there's empathic concern. And I do want to say because I think we mentioned earlier, I just want to kind of clarify something that it's not necessarily stages, so it's not like, oh, I get to the third one now, like I'm an empathy expert. I think at some stage I guess you could say that the depth of how you can experience empathy. But I would also say here that it's tactically you want to apply the empathy in the right place. So, for an example, if you're in a workplace, it may not serve you and your team to be having empathic concern all the time.
Speaker 2:Empathic concern is the one, for example, where you feel the pain for someone and then you act on it. So in the case of our friends with that tragic news I would say that's how I'm feeling right now is like, well, how can I help them? And intentionally trying to help our friends through that. But if you did that every single time anyone in the workplace had a challenge, then that would be very draining. You'd have no time left for yourself and it wouldn't be the healthy option. So I think it's recognizing there is a time and a place for different levels. But first just think how is this for that person and how can I support them? What do they need? And genuinely just taking our own blinkers of our own life off and being there for that person in front of us, getting curious, asking more questions, seek to understand.
Speaker 1:Yeah, beautiful, I love that. Maybe another podcast that we do is another time of how to thread the needle between those layers of empathy and levels of empathy and empathic concern, as well as threading the needle through to workplace-related things like outcomes and whatnot. Do you have an example? Maybe I'll put you on the spot a little bit there.
Speaker 2:When you say thread the needle, can you just be a little bit more clear with me exactly what you mean?
Speaker 1:Yeah, sure, like I sort of see the two sides of the same coin, if you will, but they're facing different ways. So there's the we need to achieve X, y and Z in the workplace. So when people come to the workplace with their challenges or whatever, then as a whole brain leader, as we talked about that, we want to have different levels of empathy for them and empathy for what they're going through, but then also be mindful that their job we need outcomes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we need outcomes, and their performance requires X, Y and Z in order to do that and to achieve that. So how do we best navigate that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think this is that whole head and heart leadership combined. Isn't it Like recognizing that we do need outcomes? Where we're here to run businesses, we're here to get outcomes, and to achieve those outcomes we need our people to be productive. So to ignore anything that might be going on for people would be foolish, because it impacts them. But to not address it and to not discuss it won't necessarily help us move forward either. I think this is a real case by case scenario, because then when you open up to mental health, it's a whole nother conversation as well, because there's a lot of, there's a lot at risk there and it's important and that we have the right conversations. I feel like my basic answer is getting clear on expectations. What do you need to see, what outcomes do we wanna see, and when do we need them delivered and how do we want them delivered and by the how, I mean in the sense of the values, of the behavior. Someone will then achieve that outcome If we make that crystal clear, and I don't just mean like, well, this is how I've always done it, so people will just get it. It's literally having those planning days, and we've been part of these so many times, helping teams set up their values, helping teams set up their ways of working, and they're above and below the line expectations. They're non-negotiables. All of these things where a team comes together and agrees to the way they need to act and behave to achieve the outcome. First, that needs to be layered. So often we go into having feedback conversations and we go into having accountability, but we haven't really been that clear with the expectations. We get frustrated and frustration is truly only unmet expectation. And then if we ask us well, how clear of my expectations been? Is it in my mind clear or is it in the other person's mind clear? So I think that first and then, once that's set and things aren't running to plan and there's issues or there's challenges, it is genuinely sitting down and asking someone how are you going? What's going on? Because you know, help me understand, we've got outcome X. Right now we've hit Y. Can you help me understand where the gap is? Or can you help me understand what's missing or what's going on for you for the reason that we didn't hit that goal or that outcome? Because I'm here to support you and we need to find a way forward and sometimes it can be, and this is where it's just so situational, right, but it's genuinely asking, because for some people it might be you know what I've just had a week from hell and I just need to have a sleep in tomorrow and come to work later. If I have that reset, it's enough for me. Great, easy done.
Speaker 2:For others, it may be they've got something going with their family or they're caring for someone or they're under stress in some way. Okay, so what can we do? Maybe that means they're working from home one extra day a week and that's gonna take their edge off and that will be enough. And sometimes it may be that we need to recommend professional support, because what they need in the workplace goes beyond what we can offer as leaders, because we're not psychologists. We don't wanna try to be, because that is a dangerous place to play to, unless you, of course, are a psychologist.
Speaker 2:So I do think that the expectations first, then getting people's opinion, not being afraid to give the feedback though I think we talked earlier about candor, I love the radical candor, two by two, radical candor being you care personally and you challenge directly. In my mind, that's where we should all sit. We definitely don't, but we challenge directly, call things for what they are, but we care. So, with the care as we think about the timing, we ask considerate questions, we loop back, we check in. There also acts of empathy, because it's not just oh, am I to do list today, I need to tell Andy he just needs to pull his head in, and then I have that conversation, I take it off my list and I carry on. But of course that's not how we need to do it. It's about okay, I need to check in with Andy and then maybe tomorrow I need to check in on the check in.
Speaker 1:And that's a good point. That's a really good point, because I think that part maybe sometimes get lost, especially if you're of the task orientated nature, where you're just like I've got a list and I just want to go hard.
Speaker 1:And when it comes to people, you're kind of sitting across from someone. Maybe you're having your monthly kind of performance catch up or just a general check in. That happens, I don't know, every two months or something like that, and you've got a list of things maybe that from a performance standpoint, need to be discussed, or from a work standpoint and updates they need to be discussed. And you're looking across from that person and it's just, for whatever reason you can tell, it's just not their day. And then I think it's that empathy is sort of, in a way, realizing that and being like what? We're not gonna go through that today. We're not gonna talk about those things today. We'll leave that for another day, when they're a little bit more on, I think, even maybe to finish us off today. I remember you had a beautiful story about one of your old leaders and old mentors to this day to kind of drive up to the Sunshine Coast one day to kind of give feedback on a particular role that you went for and maybe some things that came out of that.
Speaker 1:Would you mind sharing that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you've probably just taken half of it actually, but yes, I do remember that absolutely because I was at Flight Center at the time. I'd applied for a promotion, I was unsuccessful, and my leaders leaders leader, I think, two or three above me my beautiful mentor, who's also a podcast guest, and beautiful friend, rachel O'Brien she was the leader at the time and I remember that she called and she was coming up with my direct leader to give me feedback on why I was unsuccessful, which you gotta swallow a bit of ego and pride with those moments, don't you? Because they're not telling you the things they love about you. They're telling you what was missing and why you didn't get the role, and I'll never forget it. I was sitting at Caloundra in a shopping center there and my chin must have just starting to quiver, like I'm about to burst into tears, and she noticed probably a bit fidgety or my neck was getting a bit red or whatever, but I think the chin was the giveaway for sure. And she looked over at me and she'd driven from Brisbane to be there to give me this feedback directly. And she just said do you wanna hear this? Today? And I'll never forget that that was 2007, that happened and I still remember that moment because I was just so flawed that she cared enough to actually notice and then ask me and it was a bit inconvenient because she'd driven all the way and in true honesty, I said to her I don't think, I am Like, I don't think it's gonna sink in today and behind the scenes, my first marriage was falling apart. I was really not in a good headspace. So that kind of hit or rejection or whatever you wanna call it at the time, plus that, I just couldn't take it in that moment and I will always be grateful for that empathy and that awareness. And just to round out the story, next time I applied, I got the job and all was well, but it really was. Yeah, that was an incredible act of empathy and connecting to the person in front of you and, yeah, a big shout out to that amazing human who constantly seems to be in all those moments of my life. For me, so, yeah, very grateful.
Speaker 2:But you know what I think, if we go back, just to round it out and some of your examples there too is empathy is a skill and it's not an easy skill. It's a vulnerable skill and because of that vulnerability, that we're exposing ourselves to emotional risk, and that is not easy for everyone, that is not comfortable, that doesn't always go to plan. But if we truly care about the relationships in our life being in our work or in our personal lives or for some of us that's a combined If we truly care about the people in our lives, then it's a risk that we've really gotta take. And if you get it wrong, it's okay, just loop back, clean up the mess and try again. But when we can walk around in life and God, we said we're gonna finish and now I'm gonna open these can of worms, but I'll say it and then I'll wrap it.
Speaker 2:But you know, the referendum just recently occurred and it's just that if we could walk around with a perspective of things that are not just about ourselves and be considering other people's feelings and other people's perspectives, if we could be doing that in every element of our life, I truly believe the world we live in will be a better place and this is a skill that will change the world. But it's gonna take some time and it's gonna take some commitment to just being better humans.
Speaker 1:Yeah, very well put, very, very well put Well, thank you. Thank you, thank you for leading us, leading this way for us on empathy and certainly introducing the nuts and bolts of it to my life from when we first met and got together, and I understand my deficiency there it's like a nutritional deficiency, if you will and how I've learnt to apply it and learnt to look for the cues first of all, and now it comes naturally, but it does take work. It absolutely does take work, but it's a worthwhile endeavor because it's how the world receives you and it's how you put out and you communicate to the world.
Speaker 2:So, thank you for the impact you want to have. Keep putting out, Andy, keep putting out. Empathy to the world yes, oh no, I appreciate those kind words and thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you and keep working on your T-swift lavender haze as well, so until next time.
Speaker 2:I just want to sing. Oh, cut me off before I do. Thanks everyone for tuning in and go and lead with empathy and courage.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
