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Lead with Courage
Together with your hosts Cherie and Andy Canning, you'll dive into the minds of the trailblazers, the risk takers and those who embrace life with a growth mindset .
Get ready for real and raw conversations where authentic truths are revealed, uncovering the struggles and resilience required to bounce back.
We invite you to see this podcast as your compass to embracing your own courage to live your biggest, best life!
Lead with Courage
Steph White | Failing Forward is a Superpower! | Lead with Courage
Ever wondered how the superpower of good energy leads to successful business consulting? Stephanie White, a dynamic leader with a fascinating journey, is here to inspire with her unwavering dedication to authenticity and courage.
Steph opens up about her path, from being a part of a family of shopkeepers at her parents business, Terry White Pharmacy to establishing her own company and every step in between!
Steph’s experiences across cultures and countries have contributed to her unique perspective on managing change and having difficult conversations in the workplace.
She uncovers the critical role of digital transformation and how she maintains a balance between digital and people-centric approaches in her business.
Branding, imposter syndrome and the importance of authenticity – Steph covers it all.
Tune in to this conversation; it's an exceptional blend of inspiration, practical advice, and unique insights from Steph White.
#podcast #businessowner #founder
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Thanks for joining us on the Lead with Courage podcast, bought to you by Luminate Leadership. We trust this episode has given you some insights and joy to empower you live your biggest, best life.
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Luminate's Website and LinkedIn and on
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Until the next episode, we hope you live and Lead with Courage!
Cherie and Andy x
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Luminate Leadership is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.
Yeah.
Speaker 2:Here we go.
Speaker 1:Here we go.
Speaker 2:Can reposition. Yep, we've got all my, all my less great angles perfect. I think I'm right where I need to be. Oh, thank you, I appreciate that. And okay, can I ask I feel like I'm embarrassed to ask this question because I feel like we've known each other long enough for me to know the answer to this but would you prefer Stephanie or Steph?
Speaker 3:Either way, genuinely yeah cool.
Speaker 1:Yes, I noticed, you just answered your phone, stephanie. I was like oh, maybe we introduce her as Stephanie and then we can just call you Steph, okay, as we go.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's fine, I'm really. Yeah, I think that's probably good. Yeah, you know, is that good for you? Very good for me, all right, big thing in my face.
Speaker 2:That's it, and you've listened to a couple of our podcasts now that I that I know of, and so you know that we kick off with with a fairly I don't know. We kick off with the question of what does Lee would encourage me to you and then we sort of anchor it at the end with whose bed have you slept? In oh which is what you said at the end there, but we won't ask that.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, that's a bit random relation to that, that camera is on a weird angle, like sorry, I'm just as in, the actual camera is on a real tilt, so you can see it's no worries, I'm not getting up in the middle of it, but we can edit this part so good, I think it's like trying to oh, maybe it's the floor.
Speaker 2:Or it's definitely not straight, absolutely made it. It's. For me it was kind of viewing the lumenate like the lumenate sign was straight, so that was like my focal point in the camera. Whereas even when you make it look straight on there see, the lumenate sign is like it's sort of falling. It's just because I'm not straight on.
Speaker 3:Sure Great, I love how you're using every square inch of your office space.
Speaker 2:It's really every square inch.
Speaker 3:Giving the value of people.
Speaker 2:It's on the plan, it's on the plan.
Speaker 3:Right now it's just an expense. And I don't pay for overhead into absolutely have to.
Speaker 1:Yes, like who cares I just need my office.
Speaker 3:Mine's like a little galley.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we do think about anyway.
Speaker 3:Anyway, let's get into this Good to dream?
Speaker 1:Yeah it is. It is having a space where we can run workshops from. Yeah, that's because at the moment we're paying money for workshops at a hotel and stuff. It just feels like a waste. But yeah, All right. All right, let's do this.
Speaker 2:Beautiful Stephanie White. Welcome to the Lead with Courage podcast. Thank you. From what we understand, this is your first podcast being a guest of not your first listening to, but certainly being a guest of and we're so excited to have you here through a somewhat serendipitous moment I want to say almost. You know, six or seven months ago now we were introduced to each other and you've been a big part of really our business and probably a mediator between Shari and I from time to time as well over the last seven or eight months or so and we're really grateful.
Speaker 2:So thanks for joining us today.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to like you. Guys are delighted. I love what you're doing. It's amazing and I think one of the most amazing things about it is that it is courageous, sticking with the thing. But the authenticity that you bring and I think that's what really sticks with people, because authenticity essentially is appealing Right, and you know that, saying that people remember how you made them feel, not what you said, and there's so much that you have to say with your training and your content, but you give them that and that capability and then the feeling really locked and loads, loads of learning, and I think that's really special and I think it's really clear from the moment.
Speaker 3:Moment you met, I met you, and I know other people do too, so congratulations, oh, thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you. I feel like you're meant to come here and women to say the nice things, so thank you. Thank you, that's so lovely. I wouldn't have come. That's true, that's true. That's so true, as you may know, because you might have listened to it an episode or two. We love to ask what does lead to courage mean to you?
Speaker 3:It's so funny because I have listened to a number of episodes and I love listening to them. It's a great sort of every week little charge, and I think my answer changes really regularly because courage by its very nature like if you're called to be courageous you don't show up in one sort of version of courageous at any one time. It can be a number of different things, and so narrowing it down was really tricky, so then I just gave up. You know you're coming up with a pithy answer, right so. But I think that ultimately it comes down to sort of what my operating system is, and being courageous is showing up. It's showing up and playing full out, no matter what, and just really sticking to that guardrail of how you operate and where the courage comes in is you're not always walking into an environment where others are doing that, and you're also not always walking into an environment where you're feeling competent to show up or have the capabilities of the skills and to do that regardless is.
Speaker 3:I've often felt those moments of you know, butterflies over the years or imposter syndrome or etc. But because that is so part of how I roll, I show up no matter what. You know, and over my career that's been in different countries, in different languages. It's been in very scary, auspicious boardrooms and brands and you know that's courageous too, this sort of little girl from Australia and showing up. You know there was some big moments there that just really helped me and today, because of that sort of behaviour, there's been a number of courageous moments around managing change and managing people's behaviour, especially managing, you know, really senior people's behaviour. I think that we talk about managing up.
Speaker 3:I think it takes even more courage to manage across so laterally because you're basically influencing without power you know, and the courage to be able to speak up and have an opinion with your peers and take them on the journey can be because they're sort of, you know, often in teens this sort of group thinkers comes in and people are jostling for XYZ, but if you sort of go by that I'm going to show up, I'm going to play full out and I'm going to do the right thing right every time. You know that's where the courage can become bigger or louder. And then other times and there's been, you know, a couple of times in the last couple of years where you know speaking up for you know it's a really bad behaviour in the workplace, you know, when you have really tenured senior partners in businesses behaving badly, you know, and particularly to women, and having the Me Too movement was hilarious because I got a sort of a shorthand handle out of that, which was, you know, just being able to look at a CEO and just gently say hashtag Me Too as code for pull it in you know,
Speaker 3:because you know women speaking up for women, that's what we need, and I mean it's so funny. I've always been really young for my roles and now I'm so not, I've totally aged into myself and then I took that too far. And you know being you know, if not Me, who you know. Being able to speak up and being able to role model at four, you know whether they be the senior managers who report into me or the middle managers, and doing it in a way that's gracious and appropriate is also something that's really important, and I think that gets back to being courageous, isn't just being bloody minded because it sounds like you know you're out front and sort of sort of you know, going into the so fray, as it were.
Speaker 3:but being courageous is also being thoughtful and being really considerate about how to get that message across so it's heard, and how to get that message across in the workplace, where it is considerate and kind, Even though it might not be a great message but it's kind, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because then when you're in the workplace, you still got to work with those people. So to be able to get that message and to be able to speak up, but then show up the next day and still work together and build on a relationship, of course, yeah, a delicate, a delicate balance, it can be delicate, and it's why people don't speak up or they don't really lean into.
Speaker 3:you know the courageous piece, because it's a bit scary, you know, and for me it's. I don't really, I don't go to fear, I just go to. This is the right thing to do, and then there's a right way to do the right thing.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:You know, so that was a very long answer.
Speaker 2:It was a cracking answer and I love that part at the end. There it's that two-part process right and kind of like the check and then am I doing the right thing in the right way? And yeah, I love that. I've not thought of it like that before. So thank you yeah.
Speaker 1:And so what we'd love, I think, to talk about a little bit is maybe to share a little bit about your career and some of the I'm going to say, you know, in our blurb, at the beginning of the podcast we talk about, you know, the trailblazers, the risk takers and the growth people living with the growth mindset.
Speaker 1:For me, I think you're a bit of all of the above, and when I heard your story and your career, some of the opportunities or the doors that opened, they were real risk taking moves Like there wasn't a lot of that was really with your heart jumping in, which I love that about you so much. So I'd love if we can maybe hear a little bit about your career and also then the values that have shaped you, because I think when you're talking about doing the right thing in the right way, like you're such a values led person, and maybe a little bit about where those values have come from. And yeah, maybe we start with the values and then the career and then we'll get to where you are now. But yeah, that'd be great. So values values.
Speaker 3:I'm going to start with where it all came from, because I always think I'm just such an obvious chip off the old blocks, as it were. So I grew up in a family of shopkeepers and we grew up behind the shop, and the reason I mentioned that is growing up in a family there were five of us, so four brothers and me. It was awesome and you know it was hands on. You know, mum and dad were working the shop. We had five kids. We had a lot of kids to raise. Both my parents were pharmacists and they, you know, were both working in the pharmacy.
Speaker 1:Many people might know.
Speaker 2:Many people might know them your parents name now Terry White Pharmacy, Tara and Rhonda White.
Speaker 3:Yes, terry and Rhonda White, and I mentioned that because you know you see the brand today and it's very glossy and big, et cetera, but that, like any business, started with one store, you know, one family working really, really hard to basically build a living. You know, neither of my parents came from wealth and they had to make it work. They did pharmacy because back then it was a I think they called it a sandwich course, so they went to work during the day to earn a wage and they did university at night. You know that's how they did it and so, anyway, what that gave my brothers and I immediately was, you know, we were hands on and from like the moment you could see over a counter was ridiculous.
Speaker 3:And the operating system, the business operating system that I learned there, is exactly the same I use every single day, which is, quite simply, you know, we set out our store, our offer, we open up our shutters, we serve our customers and if we do it well enough, they come back. So today, you know, I've got a big capability in customer experience design. You know sort of people in customer experience design and operating systems and how to optimize and monetize businesses. You know it essentially all comes from that. So thanks, mom and dad. Huge opportunity there, and I think that's you know, growing up with a couple of risk takers and trailblazers and people with growth mindsets. You know I came by it honestly. But that didn't mean when I finished university that I didn't want to be someone's daughter, imagine. And and I was quite mortified by this idea, and so I was lucky enough, I got an internship in Paris, which again is like what the heck?
Speaker 1:I mean really.
Speaker 3:I know, but really that came around, came around from the brand owner said to me if you're ever in Paris, I'll give you a job. And so I showed up so and I got a job. So that's, that's how it works, and so be careful when you say that.
Speaker 1:It might come knocking.
Speaker 3:This kid might turn up on your doorstep. So and that kicked off a 25 year odyssey, basically, of being overseas. I probably took the you know go and do my own thing on my own, you know, sort of on my own kind of where with all a little too far, but I just kept getting great jobs and it was lots of fun. And during that odyssey, you know, I met my husband and we've got three beautiful children and yeah so. But yeah so, I from Paris.
Speaker 3:I then got, I was working for a cosmetic company called Clarence and then I got picked up by another big cosmetic company called Estee Lauder who had courted in that region in London, and so I moved to London then and it was at a time where Lauder was on a big acquisition trail and I was young and I bizarrely had a hell of a lot of experience for a 22 year old right, because I'd been in business forever and I always had, you know, if I was working at the farm season, I also had a job at Macca's.
Speaker 3:Mcdonald's was the best experience from like, from a team perspective and process perspective. Yes, I cut my teeth on that idea was Brian. And then, you know, I worked at the echo and you know every job. So I was like this, I just like working. Clearly that hasn't stopped. So when I started going to these roles I was quite young but I was really sort of had a mature headset and I got a lot of jobs that were considered innovative or new, which is great, and at that stage they, the Lord of Companies, were looking at rolling out into drugstores at that stage, or pharmacy, and you're a fair bit about that.
Speaker 2:And oddly, I know.
Speaker 3:So rolled them out into boots and then launched their first license brand, which was Tommy Hilfiger for that company, which was really interesting because it was like a black street rapper brand for a very conservative company. And so I got to do a lot of really fun jobs and you know, from then I went into the media and marketing industry and worked for some, a WPP organization. I ended up running that and coming to managing director.
Speaker 1:WPP.
Speaker 3:Sorry, WPP was the largest communications network in the world at the time. It's since broken up, so they had big agencies like Ogilvy and Mather, J-Walter Thompson, et cetera, so and I just got a hell of a lot of opportunities and that led me to New York. I got a call one day from a fellow chairman of a French company which is part of Unilever, and so and I went, okay, you know, and so that was that sort of when you talk about walking in and taking risks, it's like you know, show up. It really like is 80% of the challenge, as it were. You know, like you know, I got a, I got an offer in London and I showed up, you know, and and the same with New York, which I really didn't want to leave London at the time. So my friends were there, I'd basically done a lot of my growing up in London and I really want to go to New York. That you know, show up.
Speaker 1:And well, new York is my favorite city in the world, so, like, how could you say that? So maybe when you get to New York it's a different story.
Speaker 3:No, it's great, but, like you also have all your mates, and I was in a phenomenal city.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 3:I mean, you know that's very true, and I was going back and forth to New York anyway with Lorda at the time. So it was, it was nice. Anyway, it was a great opportunity and you know, I eventually said yes and that led to the next story.
Speaker 1:There was in there. I remember you telling me about being on an airplane and meeting a woman sitting across from you or sitting next to you.
Speaker 2:Correct me if I'm wrong. This might have happened more than once.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, like, airplanes are amazing, and I'm not even one of those people that suddenly starts talking to my neighbor, because I find that incredibly annoying, especially when you're flying for business. You're really knackered.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're like, I just need to put my headset on and not speak to anyone, but yeah, you had job offers from.
Speaker 3:Yes, that's how I got the Lorda job, so and I was like a baby, I didn't know how that happened. Actually, there was a, there was a connection, and then there was a follow up and I, just like we, you know, happened to me. It was kind of one of those moments, yeah, and then, yeah, that's happened again. It's really interesting People. I don't know, maybe it's a bad thing.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's your energy, because I remember you saying something like you got on that flight, you had a chapter, this person, and they went. You need to work for me, you must come and work for me. And then you did, I did.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that was amazing and that was the other story was I ended up working for a hashtag which was a big media and a lot of, at the time, magazine titles like FHM and British L and all that sort of thing and sort of took them online. You know, took that was in the dawn of digital. I like saying the dawn of digital because it sounds good right.
Speaker 3:And I know right and I'm sort of going in the one I, you know, the King of the Blind, the one I'd manage, king right. And you know, I spent a bit of time in the States and they were doing this thing called email and then this friend of mine in the States had a thing called a website and I checked that out and so that's basically like honestly. But what I did know and that that's where my, my company name comes from, yellow donkey, because it became a really kind of in local business law at the time we're quite a famous project because it got the most incredible amount of investment. Because, you know, I want to take all these what were considered magazines that actually they're brands with discrete followership, you know, and they try to help them understand that and building up brand platforms for all these, all these titles, because I wanted to create my favorite business model, as you know, is money coming from everywhere and at that time their revenue streams were limited to copy sales and advertising sales. And you know what were the alternative revenue streams? Because some both were diminishing at the time because of the proliferation of media. But anyway, so I took them into a number of areas, but I took them online and I my proposal with the yellow donkey project, because back then everybody had like project name when you went to board, you know, and they it was top secret and so stupid names. So mine was called yellow donkey and I got like ridiculous investment, like like 100 million pounds, I think it was something like that. It was not over a period of time to take them online.
Speaker 3:The reason I got that backing was, from the get go I had all the sites monetizing which at the time was like then it was a land grab, like for me. I felt that these, that basically website of URL for another shopfront you know you're going to open up your door and you're going to be shut up and customers are going to come in and if you did it well enough, they'd come back. So it was that same sort of thing. Well, that was like revolutionary thinking then, which was hysterical, because then it was just all about content online. But we were a content company, so just didn't say it makes sense to me. And so, anyway, that sort of kicked off my digital transformation career and I've really spent, from you know, the other 2000s to now, transforming and future proofing organizations and whether it be digitally and or whether it be through their operating models and people and processes, but really about optimizing and monetizing organizations. Same thing, really Awesome.
Speaker 1:Awesome.
Speaker 3:Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely does.
Speaker 3:I would think my choice is like a lot of words, but it's kind of busy, you know, when you're like when you're doing transformation work, there's like a lot to do, you know.
Speaker 2:There is a lot to do and I think you have a really, a really beautiful process to help people get there. And I know, certainly when we were working on it, just in the other room behind me, funnily enough which is why I just pointed to that Shout out to the camera again. For today it is taking me a little bit to get used to, but there's one of the exercises we went through. There was really going through that process, something that you, I remember you, outlaid so simply, you know, and then there are words behind it, but it is those, you know, a couple of years worth of experience in order to create that framework to help people get there, which is sort of what you largely embark on now through Yellow donkey, you tell us. I'm not sure if I know the origin story of Yellow donkey. I think I've been teased at a few times, but today I'm keen to find out the whole thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean it was. You know, like I mentioned earlier, it was just it was literally it's like a talisman lucky a lucky project name. So it was never meant to be my company, but I've just been so busy putting together, like I'm originally a brand strategist, so it's terrible right that I should be working on my own stuff.
Speaker 1:Well, it's like they say, the builder's house is never finished.
Speaker 2:Like I apologize you did. I know you did talk about this before I, just my brain is a little slow and it's just taking a little while to join the dots together.
Speaker 3:That's okay, I do. I give my mother the sense. You know the first thing she's going to say is you speak very quickly. You need to slow down.
Speaker 1:So there you are, and maybe people can listen to this. On point seven five speed.
Speaker 2:I know Exactly Most people listen to a podcast on one point two. Anyway, yeah, I do, I do. One point one, point two or one and a half depends on who's talking.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one point two generally yeah, so you can make in what people are saying. But yeah, we've all got it.
Speaker 2:And you can comprehend words a lot quicker. You know when you're listening than you can when you speak, for example.
Speaker 3:So I'll remind her of that. Yeah, let's call up. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Let's put her on the speaker.
Speaker 1:now One thing when I hear you speak about your.
Speaker 1:I mean, you're packing in in 20 or 20 something years of career in a few minutes there. But one of the things that really strikes me is digital and talking about money coming from everywhere, so that commercial perspective. But at the heart of everything, you are always so people centered and so people centric and I don't know that that's everyone's balance, like I feel. Sometimes people are either one side or the other, but you've just got that beautiful mismatch mishmash, not mishmash, mismatch, mishmash of the two, which is so rare and so, I think, so important. I wish it wasn't. I think I wish it wasn't too.
Speaker 3:It's funny. You know we talk about in our family business People that make the difference, and that that saying has come from you know how we are as people. It's a very genuine value and it's still in completely relevant. I've done it. If I've done anything, I've done it with having amazing people around me I'm really comfortable with and I've suggested this for everybody is get comfortable with surrounding yourself by people that are better at things than you are, and I don't know where I got that muscle from.
Speaker 3:All it do is probably like families, like I don't know everything right, but together we can figure it out, and I think I think valuing that is really really critical. You'll get there faster, you'll get there more joyfully as well. But also and I can understand this from many business owners' perspectives you know people take time. It can be a lot, it can be a handful. So you've just got to be really mindful about and intentional around that people management piece and where you're placing people and where their capabilities are best place and making sure that expectations are really clear around that. And so you know I do doing a lot of work this year around people and processes because you need to and now more than ever right. Inferring or inference is out the window, like because there's, because people are working remotely or in a hybrid manner. You're not picking up that sort of unspoken learning you know that water cooler, learning, etc.
Speaker 3:You've got to be more intentional and you've got to be more prescriptive with your expectations and your processes. So, I'm doing a lot. I mean, I haven't done a lot of process running for a long time, you know, because typically I have big teams around me, but now that I'm out on my own right I do everything and that. And I do it because I think it's so critical, because you know, if you're very clear about your expectations and frameworks, people then can then follow that.
Speaker 3:But they can then have room to bring themselves and bring the higher level thinking because they've got the basic framework right, that sort of drumbeat of a business that needs to be delivered every day, day in, day out, and then they get to bring them and at the same time, can bring themselves.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so true. There's been a lot of conversation I've been a part of recently around the more frameworks we have, the more freedom it actually gives, whereas I think sometimes people think that it restricts it, no, the free that gives you the freedom.
Speaker 3:It's funny, you know, because I've worked in creative industries a lot in my life, just because of the nature of working with brands and products and sort of in branding agencies and marketing and advertising agencies. You know, my sort of the creativity I work in is very whole-brained, so it's combining that science with that creativity, or that I would think of it as math and magic.
Speaker 3:you know, essentially, and so it's a very specific kind of creativity and you know, people often think as you're saying. I think is that creativity is like, oh, I just like this blank sheet of paper. But actually people can be a lot more creative within a framework because they need to know the boundaries of whatever it is in life.
Speaker 3:One needs to know that. You know and you know the sort of creativity I do is not fine out. You know it is for a commercial purpose and making sure that you're bringing that thinking into it. But giving your creatives and creatives isn't just like you know, graphic artist creators, it's like I'm a strategist by trade and the creativity and that is intense and insane and there's a lot of original thinking that goes in there. But like I could be originally thinking all I like, but if I'm not actually delivering on an outcome, you know that's. You know why am I there?
Speaker 2:type of thing. It only goes so far, so I get really specific around that with people.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, I mean, I think it can be exactly what you say more creative and also more innovative is. You know, when people come into brainstorms that word brainstorm cracks me up. I kind of like it, but I, you know it sort of feels real fashion, right, and it's yes, it's like you could think whatever you like and you can throw it up on a board and I want to absolutely see that. But very quickly. I want to get to synthesizing that into themes and then understanding the impact of what those themes, of what we've learned, are going to have on whatever objectivity is that we're brainstorming for. And I think getting there quite quickly is important in business because also the pace of business and the pace of delivery has increased. So you need this combination of, you know, sort of stamina and delivery, you know, and creativity at the same time.
Speaker 3:So you've just got to, you've got to be quite quick at doing these things and giving people frameworks to be able to operate within helps them get there faster and get an outcome and the satisfaction of an outcome.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:Like it feels good to tick something off you know, I mean, we're all human. Like that sort of feeling of completion is important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that dopamine hit when you get it done. It really is. Yeah, it's what it is, absolutely.
Speaker 3:Yeah, give me more of that. And that dopamine hit is what helps people get better, but it also helps them be sticky to you, your brand, your business, which is important. You know, getting back to people, but yeah, I mean, what I do is very much about it's where people, business and tech really intersect and they really intersect Like it's a Venn diagram, right?
Speaker 3:Yes, and in that little overlap definitely wide, definitely wide, exactly, but also that little overlap is where your optimisation is, your monetisation is and, importantly, your margin is. You know, like you know, margin is so important and it's often not talked about First. We talk about revenue, top line revenue. We talk about costs, but talking about was sort of like very dull, or I put it over there, what am I keeping, what's my margin, what's my cost to serve? That sort of thinking is really important and that sort of strategising around that and understanding that data is a little bit like a framework, once you've got those anchors and then start being really creative around how to solve for it, how to grow it, how to actually contain it, whatever it is that you need to do.
Speaker 3:It's a lot of fun, but it all boils down to making Tills ring. Yeah, how the Tills ringing. You know, someone was talking to me last night they go. It was something that came up about like what are you like most? And I said I really like the sound of Tills ringing, which I don't know. It's so old school. It's so old school right. But I've kicked here it in my head you know what I mean, and it's probably not even relevant to you know a cohort of a certain age anymore.
Speaker 1:So you've got to be your kids would be like, well, your kids actually probably wouldn't know exactly what that means, but their friends may say you know, be a good one for an alarm on a phone or a ring time or a podcast kind of interjunction between different sections.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but it's like if you've got a Shopify site, there's a business owner, it has a ding yeah it does.
Speaker 1:It's still Whatever, yeah.
Speaker 3:I'm sure you can turn it off, but you know.
Speaker 1:I know, Wow, we're just still Tills. Yeah, totally love that.
Speaker 3:Yeah and so. But yeah, I mean that sort of thing is like it's for my clients. It's just such a joy to see that happen and it's really hard work to get there, Like when you're in that first phase of trying to sort it out. It's kind of very messy and kind of laborious.
Speaker 3:Kind of laborious but I really work on. I'm very quick to identify quick wins Because I think both business or business people and teams you need to. We're just humans. We need some quick wins. So I tend to get there quite quickly on quick wins and every business has them. It's like sort of what can we optimize now, what can we implement now that could really make a difference to your business tomorrow? Because I think that consultants, there's a lot of chat, it's a very long timeline. It's like, yeah, but we're in business, it's a going concern.
Speaker 1:Yes, we need to make payroll, we need to make payroll, we need to make payroll Exactly.
Speaker 3:And I think I've been in their shoes Instead of I've had my own businesses. I've had to walk away from my own businesses and there's been a lot of failing forward for me and I totally get it. I work with people like it's my own. I don't know whether that's good or bad. I'm probably over-servicing, but I've got only one speed. So I've tried. I've tried to like just try a little less harder, but try and give less.
Speaker 3:I just don't have it in me and it's funny. I just I don't. I'm sure there is someone far smarter than me out there that can sort of, you know, mitigate their speed, but I'm like just all in, or all in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah and it's. It's so funny Is the the superpowers that we have? And then sometimes people go oh, do this or do that, you know that's actually your superpower, yeah.
Speaker 3:I guess I it's lucky I'm born with, I have Good energy, as it were, so, and I think that I'm perfectly born for sort of transformation work, because it is intense. You know the triage is real, you know people's pants on fire very real, I don't know. That's my favorite part. I mean like Into a business and it's um, yeah, I think if it's just be a you as it, just business as usual, that's where I get people to. But once I'm there, my job is done.
Speaker 1:You know, maybe be a job boring and unfulfilling. I don't know for you. Like you want the you, I mean some people actually live for BA. You know most people do, yeah, most humans, but I think and that's because the BA you is like you know, the day in, day out.
Speaker 3:That's what paying your payrolls paying the mortgage it's like getting it done, and that's important too.
Speaker 3:So, and also, the majority of humans do like stability. Yeah, majority of humans do not like change in innovation and going into transformation workshops and that like a to, which is a Transformation office, which is a sort of a place in an organization if you're doing big enterprise. Transformation is a really scary place for some people and for other people, they can't wait to go because they feel like that's where the fun is. That's a beautiful thing about humans, right? There's some everybody's got a gift to bring to the table. It's just a matter of finding they what that is and getting them to the right table. Yes, you know, and it may not be yours, and I've definitely been with teams and companies where that person's gift isn't right for the table that I've set Right now, and I've, you know, worked with them to find the table. That is, you know, and that's important too.
Speaker 1:So I love the language you've just used with that too and and it's the coverage actually one to see it, to give someone the ability for them to see it and then to do something about it.
Speaker 3:It is. It is crazy because having those and it's kind of like that influencing without power, lap truly, when you're growing a team and you can see someone who's really reached that point, you know where peak performance, a peak performance team, may not be for them, but they're still great and they've got their thing. And having that conversation with them is tough. You know good people. You know most people are. Most people are good people. I'm doing the best they can with what they've got and Just may not be the right spot for them. Yeah, it's not that bad.
Speaker 3:I think we I think as humans we go to villainizing people quite quickly or they're bad, or they crap their job or whatever, or really you know, as the leader, I always look at who's like not the bullet hole, but who's pulling the trigger like well, come on, let's get thoughtful about this, you know so. So I think that's a something to say, if that's, that's clear. But you talked about values earlier and, and I think you know, I think I think, no, you're fine. Oh, let me edit. Excuse me edit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think so, I hope so.
Speaker 3:Sorry.
Speaker 1:Sorry, my apology. We talked about values earlier.
Speaker 3:We talked about values earlier and when I, when I first met you guys, I laughed because a lot of your values of mine, and one that really stood out, was curiosity and Sort of. You know people will say I remember on this crazy odyssey of 25 years that I hope they kind of. Why are you doing that? Or, like you know, curiosity killed the cat.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:I'm going. What took this cat? London, new York, and you know LA and San Francisco and Columbus, ohio, oddly enough, yeah, yeah, yes, you often you know that's. You told us that.
Speaker 1:But like not everyone that goes to Columbus, ohio, on the Paris, london, new York, la, san Fran around the world to get yeah, I know I know, but that was, that was a hate queue there.
Speaker 3:It was a headquarters. So Columbus, ohio, for everywhere that's listening is sounds weird, but that's where Victoria's secret is headquartered Abba, cromby and Fitch, a lot of the big Farmers, abba pharmaceuticals there, big data companies and.
Speaker 1:Different tax there or something. Is that one?
Speaker 3:No, it's um, uh, no, that's definitely not a tax decision, I know. So a lot of it was started by a guy called less works. Now he started Victoria's secret and he was a Columbus boy and was in New York and he just sort of want to come home and he worked out how he could, you know, attract you know, executives to Columbus and he did that by offering land and house packages and putting on a couple of company jets. So in New York's one hour and 45 away, which is easy, but the living is fantastic. It costs like a dollar for a mansion which was coming from LA. We were just like what I said, my husband there and I said can you just don't press on them, cuz I think they're just stage sets you know I'm really real.
Speaker 3:But the lifestyle is great, people are wonderful. It's just like an American. Actually, I'm like freak me out, you feel you're in Stepford, but a great experience is a cut and so capital of America. You know it's a huge farming around there as well. So it was a great lesson for me judge not, but I went there to do a role as a and as a CMO, so a chief marketing officer and strategist advisor to a CEO at our hyper growth company at the time, and the reason I said yes is I'd never worked with hyper growth before. I'm like okay, so curiosity again, one of what that's like, you know. And so that was a great experience. My kids loved it. You know it was really great. It was like classic Americana and you know it was beautiful.
Speaker 1:Did I miss?
Speaker 3:that now they do. It's the place of all, the place we've lived in, that they yeah they talk about the most.
Speaker 3:Yeah they really do, they just love it. And I know we used to get Idaho A lot because my best friend lived in a little mountain village up there and it was just idyllic as well. So there's a lot of amazing you know, a lot of amazing experiences and a lot of I'm joy and just blessings, you know. But I think it all you know sort of getting back to values around curiosity, but also another value of mine is just working hard. You know you get there and I don't think I've taken one job. So if it might be, you know you look up we were talking about, look back at my resume. It looks like I made it up and I'm going really what you did anyway. But when I think about it, you know I don't think I took one job where I thought, yeah, I've got this. I think every job was like holy shit, how am I going to do this?
Speaker 3:But what, um? I was very good with showing up and playing full out and working hard and Figuring it out and asking questions. You know, like I'm not, I um Learned very early on that it was okay to put up my hand and say I don't know.
Speaker 3:And that is a real. That became because I was like for years, I think through my 20s, I felt like that I was dumb or something. I couldn't say that and I had. Um, is that? Another tip for people is, um, I had amazing mentors around me, like people, and no one knows me from net. Right I'm, I've got off the boat or the plane in Paris and um, thought I could speak french Absolutely Like it's so funny. It's one of those languages you realize how much you don't know anyway. Um. And then the same with London. I didn't go to London with friends and backpacking all that. I went there for a job. So you just have to make it work, you know, to work out how to pay, get a flat and pay rent, which is really bloody expensive in the term and Perhaps so much cheaper anyway. Um. So, but I along the way, ended up having you know some amazing mentors like much. Had a much older gentleman who, um, this was, he was fantastic at just saying a few. Everywhere was a pearl.
Speaker 3:You know, and he must have noticed this about me and it essentially came from imposter syndrome. He goes you know, it's okay to say you don't know, and I want you to notice next time who would say that in a room and it was often like the CEO or the CEO or they'd be asking a question saying, well, I don't, I don't understand that. You explain it to me. Other Could never say that was it. And so things like that gave me confidence. He gave me the confidence to ask for, you know, to be paid. Um, probably, you know, for a while it's okay to ask for that, you know. I mean, that's a courageous conversation, isn't it? I think, from no matter how old you get, I hear that a lot from people how to ask for what I'm worth, you know that was how do you?
Speaker 1:know what you were. How do you determine what that number is?
Speaker 3:Oh, he told me, oh, he told you what you were, and I guess going forward Is it just knowing what's in the market, or whatever, oh yeah it's a really good question Actually.
Speaker 3:No, um, yeah, it is definitely benchmarking what's out there and not doing it in a way in a transactional way where you feel like you're being ripped off, right. You know, I think that's a negative way to go into it. I was actually in that particular instance was starting a role. It didn't exist. It was a brand director role, which back then didn't exist in media companies and and I didn't know what one got paid and they weren't that. They weren't. You know, this is like the late 90s and they weren't a thing like brands.
Speaker 3:Who's people still in their head around brands? And and I was obsessed with them from. I mean, I remember being like about 12 and reading American business books. I'm such a nerd and I would read about people Like lia coca. He was at Ford and he bought Mustang to market. I mean I would read all Illerries and they would talk about brands and you know the whole coke story and all that sort of thing. So I was like oddly, oddly qualified and um, and so I didn't know what to benchmark myself against and then I came up with a number and I Checked and I felt like a lot or um, and he was oh no, go ask for what you want. No one else can do this and you know you've put some thought into it. And I asked and they said yes. And my sort of theory okay, this is my big tip is ask. They can only say no, no is not gonna kill you. Yes, yes, no is not gonna kill you. And I don't know where I learned that. I learned that really early on.
Speaker 2:You probably served pretty well.
Speaker 3:It's really so. This is the daggy thing that happened in my family. Okay, listeners, this is gonna just like really think I'm a dag. We're trying to dag. So a part of our education was we all had to do a Dale Carnegie call. It wasn't an option and like which was how to win, for instance.
Speaker 1:It was like the.
Speaker 3:Dale Carnegie got this and really it's really great sales system essentially, and it still holds water today like completely, and so we all had to do this, no matter what you know, and I think I might have learned to then there. Actually, that's where it came from.
Speaker 1:Isn't it amazing, those things that you do and there's like one or two or multiple pearls of wisdom that didn't stick with you and they just form. Yeah, and you can get wisdom.
Speaker 3:And it's a little bit like what you guys do, right, so you teach capabilities and skills to people, but it's just an idea. It's a little bit like I do. It's like I can teach capabilities and companies how to do things, and brands how to be different or better right. But if they don't implement it and practice it and try it and hone it and make it their own, it's not valuable. So you're not gonna get the value out of my work or your work unless you go back and you implement it and you try it on. For size and I think that's what I really focus on with the way I work with clients is most consultants don't do the implementation, but I stay in the trenches helping them implement essentially, practice.
Speaker 3:The execution, the execution, so they can optimize and monetize and through that practice you will essentially get the golden ticket which is failing forward. So because you put it out there and some bits will work and some bits won't, and then you've got to hone it. But through that process you're honing your own skill and your team skills and your company skill and your learning what the right fit is for you, for that particular situation or for your customer, whatever the outcome you're looking for is, and I think that's really for me, that's really critical and it's something I don't see happen a lot. Whereas I go to get in there and implement with you, I just got to see this is all a great idea. I'm pretty sure it'll work. It's not all gonna work. Let's go and find.
Speaker 3:Do it in sprints, you don't have to do it forever. Give your teams a two-week sprint, which is a period, a defined period of time to test a single thing out and test it properly.
Speaker 1:And see, did it work? How do we feel it?
Speaker 3:Yeah and do a retrospective and go what worked, what didn't work, what are we gonna move forward with, what are we gonna leave behind? So that kind of like building that sort of muscle in companies and in people's behavior is really important and it doesn't happen enough because we're also initially into delivery and operational stuff. That's just taking that moment to be able to do that. And that's where I guess I come in, cause I'm like a like I run alongside the team and so they can still be BAU building capabilities, working with them to come up with whatever the solution is then implementing it, being in the trenches, then pulling back out, running alongside that type of cadence, and it works. It really does.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, lots of fun, so great.
Speaker 2:How do you build a famous brand? Do you think in your view?
Speaker 3:God, that's a big, bloody question, andy.
Speaker 1:You gotta pay for that answer, Andy. You gotta pay for it.
Speaker 2:This is selfishly. This is as much for my education as it is for some people who will listen as well.
Speaker 3:It's funny. I don't know if you essentially build brands. I think you build fans and they build brands. I think that's how it happens. You know they're the practical elements of your offer. Like, have you got something that people want at the price they want it, where they want it, how they want it. Do you know what I mean? Have you got something and then you know that's your base board? And then it's a case of like, how are we building fans? And then the fans build the brand.
Speaker 1:So remember I talked about the raving fans.
Speaker 2:Raving fans. We even said that on our website.
Speaker 3:Is it, is it, is it. I'm glad. Well, I'm one of them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it, yes, one of my great teachers who I can.
Speaker 3:Never it's so rude all the great teachers out there and the podcasters out there who teach us. But yeah, building raving fans is really important.
Speaker 1:Can't buy it, Chad? No, I think it might be.
Speaker 3:Oh, seth Godin, yeah, so great books, a real basic. This is marketing. I think it's real. You know such a marketer, so yeah. So building fans is really important and I think you do that by winning hearts and minds. You know it's an emotional game, you know, and that's how people connect and so that you've got to we think about.
Speaker 3:You know, the difference between a brand and a product is emotional connection and building that emotional connection with a group of people who then build a group of people, because it's a little bit like I talked earlier about, you know, building magazine titles into brand platforms and it's like understanding those fans, that discreet audience that follow L Magazine or, or you know, fhm for him magazine, and why they do. It is is what builds the brand and no, and understanding that why we're getting into all the theorists now. So, but it all rings true, right? Yes, and you know, I sort of I think I said too early. I feel like I've had enough time in market now, enough age and stage where that sort of gathering of experience and information is is proving to be really helpful for people. I can get there faster, do?
Speaker 2:you know what I mean.
Speaker 3:It doesn't mean I'm better, I can just get there faster, and and I always know someone who is better that's one thing or the other, but you know what I mean? It's just like. It's like understanding that wisdom and then putting it into practice.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:You know it's not. It's not all about podcasts and TED talks. Do you know what I mean? That I think, and you often see you can see people who've been raised on that and and that's great. But it's like where does the rubber hit the road? Where does the implementation? Where do your hands getting dirty? You know? Where are you having to actually write the payroll check?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And you know what I mean. That's, there's a big walk, the walk, and I don't know how to do it any other way. I'm such a hands-on learner doer, you know, in the trenches, very muddy, very messy, you know. So not a lot of elegance, but definitely a lot of results. I think one would say I think you're elegant but I know exactly what you mean. You're like me, that way, absolutely.
Speaker 1:You mentioned before around imposter syndrome and failing forward. I guess, how do you, how do you recover from you know said challenge, either personally or professionally? What are the steps you have gone through to to bounce back or bounce forward?
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, it's a really good question. God, I think I mean imposter syndrome played me because I was often very young for my roles and and I was blonde and female, you know, a little female and, as I say, I've gone into myself. I think I don't have that party trick anymore. So, yeah, I just I think I was working with mentors and then I did start working with a life coach at around my sort of turning the 30s, just about that. Matt and I had my first MD role in my early 30s. So I really needed that personal development and evolution to get there, because that sort of heightened leadership is you know thyself is, I always say to people, is the theme you really need. Well, I think you need to be as an effective leader is to really understand yourself and the energy you bring to the room bring to any room and that you're responsible for that.
Speaker 3:Yes, you know, and it's a real discipline. So so yeah, it's outside help, I guess is the way. So I did a couple of sort of goes at, sort of coaching stages with different things, and I tend to, if I'm having a big change, we'll go into a period of one-on-one coaching to just like any change management process.
Speaker 3:Make sure I'm learning through it and I've got support and being able to ask those questions. So definitely there were a couple of key points in those sort of late 20s, early 30s and then going into out, coming out of the 30s as well, and getting those sort of, that sort of feedback of how you're showing up, you know, and also getting some confidence around. Well, what if? What is the worst case scenario? What if you get found out? Found out what?
Speaker 2:You know, that's the thing with imposter syndrome.
Speaker 3:What if you get found out? What are they going to find out? And sort of actually going through methodically well, they're going to find out this and they'll find out that and they'll find out this. Well, actually, that's fine.
Speaker 2:What's the worst that can happen? What's the?
Speaker 3:worst that can happen so that whole working the worst case scenario is just a great mechanic generally in life as when you're just sort of going what's the worst thing that's going to happen? You know I'm going to lose a client and I'm not going to have income coming in. So what do I do now? You know like what next type of thing? Or I'm going to this business looks like it's going to go down the goglar, okay. So what have we got? What can we salvage?
Speaker 3:And da-da-da-da whatever it is, but definitely follow the process and follow it right through and just understand, like I usually get to. I'm a bag lady on the street right which in America, without you know, welfare safety net is a real possibility.
Speaker 1:But actually because of and I shouldn't laugh like that actually, you know women in homelessness at the moment. Yeah, so it's not a laughing matter, but I see where you get to that end, yeah.
Speaker 3:And the other little thing that someone taught me is it's been having a big period of self doubt and they got me to reread my resume, Like that I'd actually done stuff. It's not like it is now, but you know back then you're still done stuff. You've got jobs, you've been successful, you've got more jobs, you know. So, actually, what the evidence is showing you, what the data is showing you, is you'll get another job. You know, or you can do this. You have these skills right. They are transferable.
Speaker 3:So yeah staying out of your head is really important with imposter syndrome, because it's all made up anyway. The imposter syndrome is just like. It's basically a thing we make up in our head, right, we choose to do. Here's my final one in imposter syndrome which actually really helped me and I think about oh sure, I got two. One is someone said to me, everybody around that boardroom table is thinking that they're gonna get found out.
Speaker 1:That's a good one.
Speaker 3:Yes, you know, and I was like really, absolutely, it was a much older sort of board chair type who'd been around. Yes, of course they do, and I'm going great, good to know.
Speaker 3:That's just me and then in the very early days, I think a lot of us can feel a bit like we're going in there and the boss or the board or whatever's going to parent you, you know, and there's this sort of concept of behavior called transactional analysis. So we all have these roles in transactional analysis and we're either a parent, an adult or a child, and we roll between these roles depending on the situation. So, you know, and organizations tend to parent, you know, and bosses tend to go into that parent role. If you keep it an adult, they will get to adult very quickly. And then you have these adult to adult conversations and that's where you want to be or they'll child you. I always suffered the child in that person. What are they.
Speaker 3:I don't know. I read that book very early on. It's called lateral thinking and it's just a really good framework.
Speaker 3:We talk about frameworks, so it's a really good framework to think when you can see people's behavior, like the games that people play and the way people behave. But, importantly, in this particular conversation around imposter syndrome, how are you behaving, how are you showing up? Yes, so really holding that space of adult to adult and so I would often go into board meetings and being like adult to adult to adult I would literally say that to myself. Isn't that Daggy? But I did, and you know it's for many years.
Speaker 3:You know, and it's really helpful. So I hope there's some good tips there because they genuinely work for me and continue to work for me. You know you never get over feeling like, oh God, I'm going to pull this off.
Speaker 2:You know or get found.
Speaker 3:You just don't, and that's good, I reckon.
Speaker 1:Yeah, enough that you get a little bit nervous and that you've got that adrenaline that's like, ok, let's go, let's prepare properly, because I'm not. Yeah, it's healthy until it becomes unhealthy, and so then it's having the strategy to bring it back to that healthy. Yeah, mine was always great like that.
Speaker 3:She was a great public speaker and she would say you know those sort of nerves that they're good channel. That's good. It means you care.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:And really if you go there it's like, yeah, I've got a message to deliver, or you know a minute, you stop getting those nerves.
Speaker 1:I think if you're speaking or presenting or whatever it is, or leading, then yeah you've, you've lost touch a little Well you're on autopilot and people can sense that. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Your authenticity and now you're wasting my time. Yeah, right, like it's like being talked to or taught that, sorry, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, insert canned response here.
Speaker 3:You know what I mean All right, okay, which is, you know, isn't how I roll. So yeah. How are we doing?
Speaker 2:We're doing great. We might have time for one last question.
Speaker 1:It's okay.
Speaker 2:I feel like this is. You are an encyclopedia of life, and I feel like we kind of get to kind of put my hands in it every time and then kind of pull it back out again, or there's some more there to go and work on. And this episode I'm excited to listen back to because I think that there's going to be a lot there and we'd love to have you back on the podcast again.
Speaker 3:It's such a delight.
Speaker 2:I feel like we just literally dipped our toes into the water. So, thank you. What is the kindest thing that someone's done for you?
Speaker 3:Oh gosh, how do you come up with one?
Speaker 1:I mean, yeah, that's so gorgeous.
Speaker 3:I think the kindest. It's very one of the kindest things anybody ever does or has done for me is believe in me. Yeah, that's really special. Just believe to me, that sort of unconditional belief that gives you wings and it's life force. So if you can give that to someone, I always. I sort of think it's so important that you give back what you've been freely given, which is why building teams and pouring into people is really important, because people did it for me. That's how I know how to do it, that's how I know, to do anything.
Speaker 3:I've had role models that show me stuff and then you practice it and make it your own and yeah, I think that belief is really special.
Speaker 2:When you just said that, I was looking straight at you and I kind of had the picture of you stepping off the plane in Paris as a 20-year-old spring chicken, kind of ready to take on the world, and I sort of see that. Still that I want to say like innocence and that sort of beauty from a 20-year-old in now a slightly older body 20 plus Maybe, but it's kind of.
Speaker 2:I think you still have that mindset. You had it then and you have it now and that's that sort of headfirst I'm all in. I've tried the balancing it's kind of a dirty word and now it's just like well, just punch it and see where we go and yeah, wow, what a gift. Thank you. Thank you for giving to us and giving to the listeners of the Lee with Courage podcast as well.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having me, guys. It would give me such a pleasure to spend time with you. I was so excited to see you both today. It's such a delight.
Speaker 1:Oh, to be in the room with your energy always fills me up, so thank you. Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:It's like you stopping at the fuel station, I think. Whenever you get to hang out with Stephanie once oh yeah, you just fill up my tank, Absolutely 100%.
Speaker 1:I was reflecting before going. I haven't said much in this one because I think my mouth will. We've got a video now I can watch it back. I think my mouth was just open and just smiling and nodding at you and at one point I'm like, have I even used my body language anywhere near, andy? No, just keep listening to Steph, no sorry, Andy.
Speaker 2:Sorry, I didn't None taken. Happy to be a warflower for this one. It's good.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you. Thank you, Steph.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having me, guys. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you, thank you genuinely. I just feel like, oh my God, my back's being to Andy. Oh, I feel beautiful.
