Cherie & Mandy | The Gift of Feedback Masterclass | Lead with Courage

In this episode, Cherie and Mandy dive into the importance of giving and receiving feedback, drawing on lessons from workshops and experiences.

Key Discussion Points:

• The Need for Feedback: Many leaders struggle to give valuable feedback because they aren't observing their teams closely enough. Feedback should be specific and based on either skills or daily tasks.
• Types of Feedback: Mandy highlights two types—skills-based and task-based feedback. Both require different approaches, but leaders must focus on providing detailed, constructive input beyond generic praise like "You're doing great."
• Catch People Doing the Right Thing: Cherie emphasizes the importance of giving positive feedback, even on behaviors we assume others already know are appreciated. This builds trust and makes growth feedback easier to accept.
• Reactions to Feedback: The 3 common reactions to feedback are Defend, Deny, and Deflect. Mandy suggests holding space for these reactions, as they often come from fear or insecurity.
• Receiving Feedback: Cherie shares that staying curious and thanking the person giving feedback, even when it's tough, is crucial. It's important to check if negative reactions stem from ego or insecurities.
• Intentions in Feedback: Mandy advises leaders to check their intentions before delivering feedback. Feedback should be given with the intent to help the recipient grow, which influences tone, body language, and delivery.

Takeaways:

• Feedback should be timely, actionable, and given in small, regular doses.
• Build trust with positive feedback to create a foundation for constructive growth discussions.
• Approach both giving and receiving feedback with curiosity, empathy, and clear intentions.

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Until the next episode, we hope you live and Lead with Courage!
Cherie and Andy x
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Luminate Leadership is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.

Transcript

Cherie Canning: Welcome back to the Lead with Courage podcast.

And I'm very excited to welcome back to the hot seat, Mandy Dudson, our Head of Learning and Development. 

Mandy Dudson: Hello. It's lovely to be back. 

Cherie Canning: Welcome back. I think last time we had you on the episode was with Brent Tate. Now that conversation whilst us gushing over what an incredible human he is has also really brought up this conversation around feedback and his episode is called Ask for More Feedback or We Need More Feedback.

Um, tell us what are your thoughts around the feedback and then let's have a bit of a conversation so we can help our listeners. 

Mandy Dudson: Yes, yes, it's, it's something I hear so common, I hear a lot in our workshops is we want more feedback. We want more feedback. And it's valuable to have frameworks to deliver feedback.

But I think that some leaders really struggle to give feedback because they're not actually creating these moments to observe their team doing their job. So if we, if we look at feedback, there's skills based feedback and then there's feedback based on tasks or, um, how they show up every day. Uh, and I think that a different approach needs to be taken or a different framework needs to be used with each of those types of feedback.

But when it comes to skills based feedback, people want to know, what am I doing well? What do I need to improve on? And. For a leader to be able to give really specific feedback, um, not just, Oh yeah, you're doing great. Because I'm sure we've all had that feedback. We've all asked for feedback where, Hey, how am I doing?

Oh yeah, you're doing, you're doing great. Keep it up. Keep doing what you're doing. Keep doing what you're doing. And like, sorry, but that, what, what can you do with that? 

Cherie Canning: Not a lot. It feels good for the first time, but then maybe the second, the third one, what you want to grow and improve. What do you do with that for you?

Yes. 

Mandy Dudson: Absolutely. So as leaders, it is so easy to get caught up in the day to day of your role, the operations, the HR battles, or this new shiny change that we need to roll out. But so when we get caught up in all of that, what seems to be the first thing to. be forgotten is, oh, I just need to spend quality time in the trenches with my team, watching them, observing them do their job.

So that way I can give them feedback that is really specific. That's going to make an impact for them. Like they'll, they'll hear what they're really nailing because we all need to know what we're doing well, because you know, As human beings, we will repeat behaviours that we're acknowledged for. Uh, and they also need to know real specifics on, okay, well, what, what is it exactly that I need to work on?

I need to tweak and how can I. improve in that area. 

Cherie Canning: Yeah, totally. And one of the things when you're saying about the small moments and the behaviors that we'll then, um, keep repeating, it reminds me of one of my favorite little quotes about catch people out doing the right thing. So often I feel that people give feedback in a place of frustration or when there's a lack, which is also important.

We also have that reminder to tell people the things that we might assume they. Oh yeah, they already know. They already know they bring this great attitude into the office. So they already know that their energy is something that lifts the whole team up. How often do we actually stop and say, Hey, what I love about you or what I appreciate about you, what I noticed about you, what we can call on you for every time is that energy you bring into the office.

I think those moments are often missing. And then when we have the constructive feedback, the corrective feedback, the growth feedback, Notice I don't say negative feedback, uh, but in any of those moments of the growth feedback, we've got that basis of trust that you've built with that relationship. So it's often then taken in a lot more of a appreciative way because there's a balance between here's the confirming feedback, here's the growth feedback.

Mandy Dudson: Yes. Yes. And, um, I agree with what you're saying around, um, uh, like sometimes leaders are like, Oh, they know that they know they're doing a good job. But what's really interesting is, um, We've been running our impact player workshop and part of that workshop The there's a list of questions that each person needs to answer for themselves They also before they answer those questions that they're related to like, what do I do really?

well, like what do I do better than other people and But before they answer those questions for themselves, they go and ask that question Um, their teammates, what, what that answer is. And so often they go, Oh my gosh, I didn't realize that. That's what people see as my strength as my superpower and what I do.

And it's really, really powerful. So just highlights we have to, we have to tell people what they're doing well so that they can really lean into that. 

Cherie Canning: A hundred percent. And then when you add into the layers of imposter syndrome and people, the amount of burnout and people are feeling fatigued, sometimes actually just that moment of this is what you're doing well, and we appreciate you for that.

It doesn't eliminate that feeling, but it absolutely adds in that. Yes, I'm on the right track or that boost of confidence for people. 

Mandy Dudson: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. What about you? What do you, what, what, what do you think we need to work on when it comes to giving more feedback? 

Cherie Canning: There's so many elements. One of the things I feel is an important one to mention is around how do we react when we deliver feedback.

So I think it's one, how do we react when we receive feedback? Also as the deliverer of feedback, how do you respond? And so what I am thinking here is there's so many elements. It's three automatic, very common ways that people react with feedback, and it's the 3Ds. We get into defensive mode. We want to explain and justify why that happened, which is human.

Um, we deny it, whether we don't see that it was real for us, uh, or we deflect and oh, but if so and so had have done this thing over here, or well, that wasn't so bad. And whatever it may be that deny, deflect, defend. When we're delivering feedback, if we can take a minute and take a breath, when someone responds with that, not to then retaliate.

I feel like if I know back on my, myself and I reflect on the years gone by with feedback, I think then I'll want to justify why I've said the feedback when they've gotten defensive. And then you just think this trigger or this activation just explodes and builds and builds. When in fact, if we can just allow people, okay, this is an automatic defense for so many people.

Be compassionate. Hold the space, let them empty their bucket of the justification. Often it's coming from a place of fear that they're not enough. They haven't given enough. They've let you down. So it's not coming out of spite or nastiness. Just allow them to get it out. And then we can start discussing the strategies moving forward.

Mandy Dudson: Yes, I agree. I agree. Good advice. What about, what about receiving feedback? Because I think giving feedback is, is such. Like that, that's one skill. Yes. I almost feel like it's a skill to receive feedback as well. What, what's your advice? Well, the feedback 

Cherie Canning: I've been given from Andy about the way I receive feedback is that I'm terrible at, but obviously that's not true.

Mandy Dudson: No. I'll give you some feedback on that. 

Cherie Canning: Feedback on the feedback. Look, I, yeah, it's a great question and it's a skill. I believe that feedback in both directions is a skill, isn't it? First and foremost is just to stay curious, because then when. Someone's perspective is their perspective and the piece of what they've seen is their reality.

So if we can approach it with generous assumptions, I truly believe it takes people courage to actually decide to step up and give someone feedback. So if some, if someone, whether it's your leader, a peer, a partner, a friend has found the courage and the respect for you to say something, I truly believe it's because they care.

And 99. 9 percent of the time that's true. So if we can remember that when we're receiving feedback, and get curious, if it doesn't land, I often get asked these questions in workshops, I'm sure you do too. What if I don't agree with the feedback? You don't have to take everything on, but what I'd say is to check in.

Is it my ego saying no, or is it a, you know, a clash of values or, or, um, beliefs 

Mandy Dudson: or my inner critic trying to protect me, 

Cherie Canning: protect me precisely. So then if it say, okay, that surprises me with a calm voice and actually saying, well, that feedback, I haven't heard that before. That surprises me. Can you help me understand where you've seen that so that I can do something with it?

That's a very different reaction to it. Well, when did that happen? Yes. Um, but that tone and that curiosity versus defensiveness and always, always, always say thank you. Because even in that moment, if it's hard to hear or it might not align in that moment, It is truly a gift every time someone gives us a different perspective that unlocks some awareness for us and to always thank someone for the feedback.

Mandy Dudson: Yeah, because it's not easy to deliver feedback and have someone on the receiving end react and it can make the person delivering the feedback close off from wanting to give them feedback ever again. 

Cherie Canning: Ever again. That's it. And so I think we've got a responsibility of how we receive the feedback. Yeah. I also believe from the deliverer of feedback is to consider what, um, how activated or your energy at that moment.

If you're coming from a place of frustration, this is the sixth time someone's done that thing again. That isn't the time to deliver the feedback. Um, if you're disappointed in something, if you're tired and exhausted, it's not the time for the feedback. I think stop, think and ask yourself, is Is this timely?

Are we bringing up something from three months ago that's changed? If so, it's not the time. Um, is it helpful? So is this actually going to help grow someone in the future? And is it changeable? So often I make a joke on Um, you know, reference and to podcast listeners, they might not have seen me in real life.

I'm not a very tall woman. So if somebody said to me, Oh, you know, Ches, you're a bit short. Like I can't do it. I can wear some heels. Maybe I can't do anything about that. If somebody said to me, uh, you speak too fast. Sure. I can work on that. But how often do we give feedback on things that actually, are fixed rather than tangible for people.

Mandy Dudson: Yes. Yes. And just to build on what you were saying there.

Cherie Canning: About my height? Uh, sorry. 

I

Mandy Dudson: can't comment on that because I'm probably about one centimetre taller than you. Uh, but yeah, Just to build on that, I think something that's I, that where I've gone wrong in the past and learnt from is just considering, well, what are my intentions before I go into delivering this feedback?

I like to do an intention check and tell myself, okay, my intentions in this moment, uh, when I give this person feedback is I am doing this because I truly want to. Want to see them succeed. I want to see them grow. I want them to get that promotion that they're after or hit that target that they're striving towards or get that goal.

And when I do that intention check, that then comes through. In the converse, like your, your intention impacts your body language, your tone of voice, the words you even choose to use in that moment. And the person on the receipt receiving the feedback can, can set, feel, they feel all of that. Yeah. Feel your intention.

Cherie Canning: I completely agree. And even if it's just to regulate your nervous system, because you're a bit nervous that they might take offense or it might be hard for them to hear. And but by checking in on. For what reason am I saying this? This is for the benefit of this person because I truly care. And it reminds me of the radical Canada model around I'm going to, I care personally and I'm going to challenge directly.

And that's where I really believe, you know, we all need to strive for. Um, when it comes to giving and receiving feedback. And feedback doesn't have to be this and shouldn't be this annual, biannual, quarterly event. It's, it's micro pieces to keep people growing. 

Mandy Dudson: Yes, yes, totally, totally. And I, my other, probably one additional tip on, uh, receiving feedback is there's so much power in closing the feedback loop.

Cherie Canning: Yes, 

I love this one. 

Mandy Dudson: Yes. So, um, how often do you receive feedback and then A month later or a couple of weeks later, go back and check in with that person who gave you that feedback to say, Hey, you gave me this feedback. This is what I did. This is how it impacted me. This is how it impacted others. This is what I'm going to do next.

Thank you again for that feedback. Because by checking back in and closing that feedback loop, letting them know what you've done with that information or that feedback, sorry, it. It encouraged the, encourages that person to want to give you more feedback. 

Cherie Canning: Yeah, I, I agree. And I think we've got a real life example of that when, um, that feedback loop we spoke about in one of our, um, workshops with impact players and more recently I was, um, retelling that story in the gift of feedback workshop.

And, uh, the example I gave was some feedback you gave me and how then, um, I needed to close the loop. 

Mandy Dudson: Not about your height. It had nothing to do about your height. 

Cherie Canning: About how fast I speak. No. Um, no, absolutely. It was around our weekly meetings. And often, um, The weekly meetings that we have, uh, they were very unstructured.

It was the one opportunity per week that we would all have present time together. And often the way my brain's working, I've got this idea and let's talk about this. And that goes on to another tangent over here. And that's all lovely. But if we've got an hour to an hour and a half on an agenda for a weekly meeting, we weren't hitting the mark.

And the feedback you gave me was, um, We could make this more streamlined, more efficient. And at the time, of course, you had, Oh, I really should be doing that. And I wish I was, and why, why wasn't I, and maybe being a bit hard on myself, but no, no, in the moment. So what I did with the feedback being the second step.

Was then delegated, empowered you, but you, this for Mandy, this was something you were really great at. And so, okay, well, would you like to be part of this? And you said yes. And so then the next step is, you know, what improved as a result, we had a really structured, streamlined weekly business meeting agenda.

Like this is not rocket science, but this is a prime example of, I was just running through the motions. You took it on. We've improved that. Um, and then what's the next step is, um, you know, how has this helped others? So then it allows, when we have Bec come in, uh, when we have other people come and join us, we know the mark we're gonna hit, who's speaking first, what we need to prepare, um, and then what I've, What I've learned and what I'm going to do next is like, never run another meeting.

You know, I'll attend the meetings and I'll hijack them that way. But I'll, but most certainly is then on our planning days and our innovation days, you're often the person who's structuring the agenda so that we, we keep to track and I'll still bring what I bring energy and ideas and conversation. And then bringing that with, and collaboration with the great structure you've had.

So for me to you, I'm so grateful for that. Otherwise we would still be in last Monday's meeting still, 

three days later, 

Mandy Dudson: and I'd be about to give you some more feedback on that. 

Cherie Canning: So I would love if, you know, if there's nothing else, anyone takes from our little micro episode today on feedback is to reflect on the way that you receive feedback, um, consider that, you know, there might be some listeners here who say, well, no one ever gives me feedback.

So there's one of two things. Who are you asking? You know, ask someone who's in the arena, someone you value their opinion, ask for specific feedback with good pointed questions so people can give it to you. If the answer is I'm still not getting any. Potentially you've got to look on the reflection of, well, how have you reacted in the past?

So maybe people are afraid to give you feedback or they're not feeling safe to do so. Uh, if that is being all well and said is go and ask for feedback and then check in on the loop. So if there's nothing else is think about the feedback you have received and encourage people to go back and close that feedback loop, share what you've done with it, share how it's impacted you.

That would create an incredible ripple effect from this conversation. 

Mandy Dudson: Yes. And for the leaders listening diarise type pop time in your calendar that is solely devoted. To getting in the trenches with your people and observing them do their job so that you can have valuable, specific feedback to give them to help them grow.

Cherie Canning: Yes. 

And remember, catch people out doing the right thing. 

Mandy Dudson: Yes. 

Cherie Canning: Beautiful. We'd love feedback on the chat. If anyone enjoyed that, let us know if you didn't also let us know. But yeah, thanks for coming on, Mandy. It's great to have a chat and let's go deliver some feedback. 

Mandy Dudson: Love it. Thanks for having me. See you next time.

Cherie Canning: See you next time. 

Bye.