Toby Jenkins | The Olympics & Psychological Flexibility

What does it take to lead with trust, resilience, and courage—both in the pool and in the boardroom? In this episode of Lead with Courage, Cherie Canning sits down with Olympian-turned-entrepreneur Toby Jenkins to explore the lessons he’s learned from elite sport and leadership.

Toby, a former Australian water polo player and now Executive Coach, knows firsthand the power of trust under pressure. He shares how his Olympic journey shaped his leadership philosophy and how the same principles of teamwork, discipline, and psychological safety apply to business and beyond.

Together, Cherie and Toby dive into why trust is the ultimate competitive advantage, how leaders can create environments where people feel safe to take risks, and the small yet powerful actions that build deeper connections. With practical strategies and real-world insights, this conversation will leave you feeling inspired to lead with more authenticity, courage, and impact.

If you're looking to elevate your leadership, strengthen relationships, and create high-performing teams, this episode is packed with wisdom you won’t want to miss!

Resources:

Psychological Flexibility Test

Connect with Toby

Website: https://www.tobyajenkins.com/

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tobyjenkins/

Instagram @tobyjenkins

X: Toby_Jenkins

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Thanks for joining us on the Lead with Courage podcast, bought to you by Luminate Leadership. We trust this episode has given you some insights and joy to empower you live your biggest, best life.

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Until the next episode, we hope you live and Lead with Courage!
Cherie x
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Luminate Leadership is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.

Transcript

Cherie Canning: [00:00:00] This is the first conversation for me in 2025 on the podcast. 

Toby, welcome to the lead with courage podcast. It is such a thrill to have you here.

we always start with the first question, the same for all our guests. to kick us off, can I ask you, what does it mean to you to lead with courage?

Toby Jenkins: When I saw that question, I went back to what is courage and the Latin root of courage is heart. Core is the word COR and Latin root is heart. I love a quote by Carl Jung, which says your vision will only become clear when you can look into your heart, who looks outside dreams, who looks inside awakes.

And 

I 

Toby Jenkins: thought that really touches on where I sit with, leading with courage which is, how do we own everything that's in our heart not just the good stuff and the aspirational components. but also recognize that we all have fears doubts and frustrations inevitably.

And so how do we bring all of that to the table [00:01:00] as well as the hopes dreams and aspirations? 

Cherie Canning: Carl Jung has so many incredible pieces of wisdom and I absolutely love that. Thank you. I remember the first time I met you It was at the CEO sleepout in 2024.

And actually I met you maybe without meeting you. I saw you and heard you speak. I remember thinking, who is that guy? I need to find out who he is, what you had to say and share really inspired me. when we did this privilege walk, they called it.

at the CEO sleep out for those who aren't familiar, there's, you know, 200, 300 people there. And we're all talking about our experiences in life. stepping forward for the opportunities we've had and some of the hardships and tough times.

And at the end, somebody who had a roving mic and went to the people at the front and said, How did this feel for you? Do you remember this? I do. What do you recall from your answer? Cause you had the microphone in front of you in that moment. 

Toby Jenkins: I did. Yeah. So just to enrich that context [00:02:00] too, this is the CEO sleep out is about homelessness ultimately.

And for me, as I walked through that exercise, the recognition for me was really that. I had grown up in enormous privilege one of my core beliefs around that is that with privilege comes responsibility. I grew up son of two doctors, private school educated, university educated, really one of the most privileged people in the world in lots of ways, but none of which I could control, 

But the opportunity then becomes, okay, well, given this context, what can I do with it? And I can either choose to feel guilty about that, or recognize that it's an asset or an intangible asset that I can then bring into the world and try to make a contribution and serve others and help others.

to me, that's where the responsibility comes with the privilege. 

Cherie Canning: incredible. those words you said have been something I've repeated and shared since meeting you. I'm just delighted that we have this conversation. I'd love to talk about where you are now in the roles that you do.

And also a little bit about, your, [00:03:00] prior life. It's still all one life, isn't it? It's all integrated. Different chapter. Different chapter of your life that has brought you here. And Yeah. Can you share a little bit about for us, do you think has brought you into this seat today as you sit here as an executive coach and, speaker and the work you do with so many leaders businesses and humans?

yeah, a little bit of the backstory of Toby. 

Toby Jenkins: you've heard a little bit already. born one of five children, to loving parents and enormous privilege, and fell in love with this game called water polo in year eight, my sisters had both played it.

And I loved swimming and thought, Oh, I'll give this thing a shot team sport, ball sport in the water. That's my happy place. launched into that and realized that I did love it, had some talent for it and then pursued it as hard as I could ended up playing three world championships, an Olympic games, one national title here in Australia it was a real journey as an athlete my first Australian team was in year 10 and my last one was 2005 in the world championship team. it was an [00:04:00] extraordinary chapter of really trying to answer the question, how good could I be? And of course, how that laddered into a team, what contribution could I make, 

And I think it's actually an interesting one when I now meet with leaders and teams one of the pieces that often gets left out of the sporting analogy, which is limited in a business setting because it's not a zero sum game, is that whilst you're training together, An enormous amount of the percentage of the time spent is really developing the individual capacity.

And yes, there is this team dynamic layer for sure, but the All Blacks will always be GPS first grade team, right? Regardless of their team dynamics, purely on raw individual capacity. I have found that an interesting question to reflect on, how good could I be and how did this ladder into the team?

And then the second chapter, I came back and started a digital marketing company. with some mates of mine thought this whole internet thing, isn't going away. 

You just say, 

Toby Jenkins: so in 2005 [00:05:00] decided we'd kick that off. And, that business is still going with my business partner, blue wire media, Adam Franklin up on the sunny coast.

He still runs that. And which is really cool to consider. And that was. 20 years. 20 years and 20 years on the 7th of January. what a milestone. That's significant. That's really cool. 

Cherie Canning: 20 years in digital media in marketing. A 

Toby Jenkins: lot has changed. I got really fascinated in the people development side of things with the business and leadership. And I always had been that way inclined anyway. And, but to me, that chapter sort of gets defined by a question, which was how good could this team be?

from a system structure process, leadership standpoint, team, you know, the team dynamic, how do we recruit or the whole people experience just really fascinated me That journey, in 2016, I've hit this period that I've come to call my crucible, I had my second daughter, she had silent reflux.

So it was up and down every 45 minutes. I had a shoulder operation from [00:06:00] throwing ball as hard as I could for 20 years. That was way more painful than I'd expected. I'd spent six weeks prior to her arrival, upright on the couch, trying to sleep. Pretty tough going. And then at the same time, my father in law was in hospital with leukemia.

My own dad had died from a brain tumor perfect storm. Right. if you think about it, a crucible by definition is like a vessel that gets exposed to extremely high temperatures. To reform or reshape metal ultimately, and purify it I think in that period, when dad died, he was 66 when he died.

his folks had been 98 and 93. So there'd been this expectation of longevity. And for me, that was a big. Look in the mirror moment and what am I doing, why am I doing it? And that led me down the path and it was around that same time that I got introduced to psychological flexibility. I'd had a fair bit of experience with psychologists through sport and personal life 

I'd always been intrigued by it, to be frank, and then got [00:07:00] introduced to psychological flexibility and that just joined dots for me. It was. Western science validating millennia old traditions of mindfulness and acceptance practices into a very neat model that didn't throw out all the goal setting and things I learned but also added these extra dimensions to it 

I've been a fan of philosophy, religion, stoicism, all sorts of stuff for a long time and here I was with a evidence based World Health Organization model that actually ties it all together. 

Cherie Canning: how much of that psychological flexibility was there at the time?

Toby Jenkins: Pretty much zero. When I think, actually, yeah, very, very little. Most of what I felt I was taught looking back, it was very much around harder, tougher, stronger. eliminate stress and pressure, set goals, chase them and, you know, go, go, go, 

Cherie Canning: go, go. Whatever it takes, just get there. 

Toby Jenkins: and very much this idea that to show weakness in inverted commas is not acceptable.

you don't want to [00:08:00] show pressure. So how do you deal with it? that seemed to be the mode of the day. it wasn't until I read, Michael Johnson's book and it was six months out from the Olympics or four months out from the Olympic selection as to whether I'd make the team or not.

And in this book, he said, one of the things that got him into the gold. he won the two gold medals in Atlanta for the 200 and 400 meters, sprints. the difference was when he began to own the goal and to accept that he kept deflecting the question, deflecting, deflecting, you know, are you chasing two goals, Michael, are you chasing two goals?

he said, finally, when I actually accepted the pressure and accepted that that actually was what I wanted. Then I began to be able to work with it. that was interesting because it really changed my narrative at that point. You know, in these final little bits to actually say to people, yeah, I'm really hoping I made the team.

Seems so fundamental, right? But up until that point, I've been, Oh yeah, We'll see. Yeah. So I'm hoping, you know, 

Cherie Canning: almost like a protective mechanism when you're, Oh, we'll see, like it's out of my hands. Not that then you're choosing [00:09:00] yourself as a selector, but to actually put it out there and say, yeah, this is what I would like.

This is what I own 

Toby Jenkins: And so that was interesting. And that was probably the first time I'd come across. a mindset of acceptance, you know, and really that's what the science shows as well. Nowadays is that to learn, to work with the fact that we all experience, you know, the one thing that we all have in common is suffering.

You know, we all have fears and doubts and frustrations. Yes, we have hopes and dreams and aspirations, but a lot of what I see and certainly have experienced in my life has been very much focused on the fear and the hopes and dreams. if you make it big enough, you'll be drawn towards it. But actually, how do we sit with the discomfort and how do we bring the discomfort for the journey with us? these millennial practices of acceptance and 

Cherie Canning: yes, 

Toby Jenkins: it's a part of the yin yang of our experience. Isn't it? 

Cherie Canning: Yeah, it is.

It is. I love it so much. We are involved with the goddess in the boardroom program We've got to get out of our minds and into our body. and be really aware of the self talk [00:10:00] and bring it into our body. how often are we just walking around this world, almost like a disconnected body and mind rather than integrated.

in those feelings, even acceptance, all the emotions. Where do you feel it? How are you experiencing it? How can you regulate it? The mindfulness? the body and mind connection people call it woo woo. Like it's some crazy thing, but isn't it just how we're, wired and created as humans.

Toby Jenkins: I sit here and feel, an elevated heart rate, slightly sweaty palms. and energy through my whole body. And that is, and the questions showing up, are people going to be interested? You know, will they, will they listen? Is this valuable? 

I've recognized that this is the price of entry to doing what I deeply care about, I talk about this in presentations trying to own. My lived experience of doubt and fear in service of the fact that this is actually the one thing that we all share.

And so how do we connect at that level, given that your hopes and dreams and aspirations are different to mine, but I can nearly certainly guarantee that if I name a [00:11:00] few emotions, doubt, fear, frustration, sadness, anger, resentment. We'll capture nearly everyone's, everyone will have had an experience of that.

Cherie Canning: That's 

Toby Jenkins: what we connect on as humans, in my opinion. 

Cherie Canning: Yeah, mine too. And how often you hear these phrases, leave the emotion at the door or don't bring the emotion to the workplace. I kind of really fight up against that in a way, I think to be able to regulate our emotions so we can have real conversations, but to express it, to feel, to acknowledge.

To express our emotions and manage them is a huge human skill that AI will never be able to take over. And it's critical. we don't want to leave it at the door. We just want to be able to manage and express it. What are your thoughts with that? 

Toby Jenkins: Yeah, I mean, you need to learn to bring it into the room with you and have it sit with you while you deliver what really matters to you.

And the interesting part around that is that there is a direct. Correlation between how much we care and how much of this stuff shows up, it's not because we're weak or broken [00:12:00] or inadequate or something is missing that we feel and experience these things. It's actually a sign that we care.

So in fact, the more we care, the more likely it is to show up. that explains my Olympic experience of landing in the village, assuming I had a stomach infection and it's stopping the day I left. It was a physiological response to how much I had built this event up in my mind for 16 days.

the physiology was, you know, I cared so much because this was everything I was about. It has been 11 years of enormous hard work, ups and downs, missed out on Sydney, made the team in 01, made the team in 03 and here I was sort of dream come true stuff, Athens in 2004 and still feeling like I was the last person selected on the team.

Like that story, the imposter syndrome is with me all my life. Always felt like I was the last one selected on the team. Any team I made. You know, I get up in front [00:13:00] of an audience or on a podcast like this and wonder, is anyone going to be interested? it's in order to sort of change the relationship to it is, is how I see it.

So it's not, and I would call mine. Purpose in life is to change the relationship to suffering, because if we can change the relationship to it, then, it's not the enemy anymore. There's nothing to break through. There's nothing to fight. There's nothing to overcome. How do we bring it into the room with us, use it as an energy source, even to communicate a message that we deeply care about or step into the difficult conversation or, harness that in a way.

That is useful. it doesn't make it easy and it certainly sounds simple, but not necessarily easy. But how do we do it? Because if we can, then, you know, to me, that's how we get people to not even just to bring the best of who they are. But what I'm looking for in my clients is, you know, how do you bring all of who you are to as many moments, as many days as possible?

How do you bring all of it? Because we don't just need the best. We need the humanity [00:14:00] of this as well. 

Cherie Canning: And then through that, when you have the full life experience, I feel like that's when your fulfillment comes through, what are your thoughts on that.

Like what is it about bringing your, full self and all of the experiences what is the end gain 

Toby Jenkins: have you read Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning? 

Yeah, I have. 

Toby Jenkins: one of the core premises of his work was this idea of movement towards wholeness.

And I really love that idea. if you even take, yin yang as a symbol of, the white teardrop with the black dot, black teardrop, white dot, and recognize that is our lived experience, you know, highs and lows, triumph and trial, love and suffering. It's all a part of who we are.

So in the movement towards that, it's the ongoing practice of accepting that that's actually who we are. And if fulfillment is like, filling a cup and it's taking, all of you. Then that means you need to accept it all, not just the shiny bits that feel nice.

And when we care, [00:15:00] all the other stuff shows up to you. 

Cherie Canning: Yeah. It's so true. It's so true. And how often we are just almost programmed to push away the hard stuff. I had a conversation today with someone about expressing their emotions in front of their kids. 

What message does that give our children if the only emotion we allow them to see is when we're happy? I think there's a realistic thing in our workplace and in life where you go where it's appropriate and I guess then that's a bit of the gray because there's no guidebook on this. if you are completely In breakdown mode, maybe then you've got to seek some support to shift out of that way if it's not always 

Toby Jenkins: super important 

Cherie Canning: working for you, but to allow the ebbs and flows of emotion and to express them and almost from a workplace and with our families to go, right, this is part of the human experience.

This is how we sit in the discomfort. Then this is how we find the joy as well. And it's doesn't have to be so [00:16:00] binary. what are we teaching our kids if we're really holding all of that emotion in? Cause it's still there. We're just, it's just inside of us. And then like you say, 16 days and an Olympics with this.

It'll find 

Toby Jenkins: its way out one way or another. 

Cherie Canning: Absolutely. Can you tell us more about the psychological flexibility? Cause I don't know if that's a term everyone's familiar with and what can you share? Like, I really want to hear. But your take on it and more about it, I'm genuinely really interested in it.

Toby Jenkins: Thanks Sheree. the core visual that I love people to take away from this is, you know, this idea that, you know, on the one hand, we're not trying to turn people into brick walls, ultimately, brick wall of harder, tougher, stronger, it doesn't really serve anyone because if you hit a brick wall hard enough with a sledgehammer.

What we're trying to do with psychological flexibility is, to help people become trampolines. So they can absorb the hits and bounce back, absorb, bounce back, absorb, bounce back. 

Cherie Canning: I love that visual. 

Toby Jenkins: the truth is there will definitely be sledgehammers. We don't know when, we don't know how, but it's [00:17:00] not a matter of if.

So how do we prepare and what are the practices that support us in developing? I mean, you could use the term resilience as well, how do we absorb these hits and bounce back because they are the truth of what we all work with, particularly in a leadership space. you've got curve balls coming at you from the outside world.

There's the inside world, personal life work. I don't really believe in compartmentalization. I think, you know, we're integrated. Perhaps we can keep things compartmentalized for a time, but sooner or later it'll bleed in. So, what are the springs on the trampoline that help us to do that?

And that's from my standpoint, the top three would be relationships, work and health. How do you manage all three of those? what are the ongoing practices that support those three areas of our lives. And of course, relationships breaks into, you know, work, home, parenting, all the various social.

various relationships, but, if we can nurture these areas, then [00:18:00] generally people have a sense of wellbeing or, resilience or have the energy in the tank, the core of psychological flexibility as a model. So it was developed by not in, began development in 1982 with professor Stephen Hayes. It has since been validated in world health organization trials in 2021 for clinical situations, great, anxiety, depression, substance use, all sorts of stuff.

That's not my game because I'm not a clinical psych. I'm fascinated now it gets applied in wellbeing and performance and in the spectrum. what has come out of that is a triangular model. if you visualize a triangle in the bottom left, if you write open up in the top of the triangle is be present.

And then bottom right is do what matters. So that's open up bottom left, be present at the top and do what matters. Bottom right. Open up is not so much about opening up to other people open up is very much opening up to our own experience of the tough stuff, the fears, the [00:19:00] doubts, frustrations, whatever, be present typically comes with mindfulness contact with the present moment.

How do we come back to the present? Not necessarily to feel good, but to recognize that we still have a choice. So there's a lot of our reaction that we can't control. You know, we have tens of thousands of thoughts, feelings, sensations in a given day. We have, very little control of that inner world and a lot of psychological flexibility is letting go or accepting that we have little control of our inner world.

And then be present is about recognising the choice. given I have very little control of the world around me, I have very little control of the world inside me, how can I come back to the present to recognise, well, what choice can I make here? And then ultimately in that bottom right of the triangle that do what matters, it's connecting to the behavior that leads you towards the things that matter to you.

And that directionality is really important. So rather than positive and negative behavior, I'd tend to talk a lot more around towards and away behavior, primarily because behavior generally [00:20:00] is contextual. You know, in some settings to do what matters or taking a performance behavior, maybe to speak up in another setting or moments later in that same setting, the performance behavior may be to sit still and listen.

the only thing that has changed is the shift in the context, whether it's the conversation or the content or what have you. So the towards is very much around, often towards behaviors come with a short term discomfort, whereas away behaviors come with a short term gain.

So if I play out an example here, if we're talking about health going for a run in the morning, the alarm goes off, what choice do I have? the bed is warm, it's cold out, the first couple of k's of a run are always horrible and uncomfortable. Do I want to do this? No. there's a short term benefit to hitting snooze on the alarm.

Cherie Canning: Staying in your comfy bed. 

Toby Jenkins: The long term cost of that, if we continue to hit the snooze button is that we lose. Our health, we lose, [00:21:00] what the health enables ultimately. So it's not even just health and fitness. It's like, what does health and fitness enable relationships, you know, running around with children, grandchildren, connection to others, the physiology, psychology, that all comes with a behavior like that.

On the other side of that choice is a towards behavior, which is, okay, I'm going to get up and go for this run. what that requires of us as humans is that we sit with the discomfort of getting out of a comfy bed. 

I'm stepping into the car. 

Toby Jenkins: It's still dark. All the thoughts, the feelings, the sensations all show up.

You pull on your shoes. It is uncomfortable for the first K or two, but then the long term benefit of that, is that we feel good after the run. Very rarely do we feel great before the run. When you think about behavior change, it's about connecting to the long term benefit.

And what does that run enable then? Well, if I'm fitter, if I'm stronger, I'm sharper at work if I've done my training this morning I'm a better husband. I'm a better dad. I'm more focused at work. everything benefits by this lead domino of getting out of bed when the alarm goes [00:22:00] off.

our lives are made up of these millions of choices that we all make each day. How do we compound them towards and try to minimize the away moves that erode the progress that we're trying to make, it's also human to Not get it right all the time. the other part I find fascinating about it too, Cherie is that those two little pieces of, the short term benefit and the short term pain, almost never is it an information problem.

Cherie Canning: Yeah. So what is it? Because we know, we're really aware it's going to give or take from me in these ways. what's missing for people? 

Toby Jenkins: Well, it's the willingness to sit with the discomfort and bring that for the ride. And it's our wiring that says we want to move towards, comfort, which is natural and we want to move away from pain, 

And so we have these inner worlds that provide both of these things. how do we sit with both of those, recognize them for what they are, be aware enough when they show up and still make these choices that move us towards. not in some sense of [00:23:00] perfection, but as an ongoing practice.

Cherie Canning: Yes. it's the discernment of the pain, because even if you're saying all this, the expression in my head just popped about the long term game, it really is so true because you go, short term, I'm going to say no to these things, but long term, what is it that I'm actually saying no to or yes to?

Toby Jenkins: I love that as well. a lot of. People talk about, I need to say no more is a really common thing that comes across in my coaching sessions with clients at a senior level, but it's actually well, yes, maybe you do, but a part of it is also getting really clear on what you were saying yes to.

Cherie Canning: Yes. 

Toby Jenkins: Because the other option when it comes to our communication and this stuff is that you can, it can be far easier to communicate the yes. Hey, I'm going. Yeah, I'm going to go to this gym session today because I know I'm a better leader or executive or what have you, as opposed to, no, I can't see you.

It's like, yes, I'm going to the gym. This is super important to me. Can we have a conversation [00:24:00] about whether what you're proposing to me is more important or less important and then we can prioritize. 

Cherie Canning: Rather than saying, no, I can't. That feels like you're letting people down or there isn't the people pleasing and I'm not truly speaking what you desire or you have been clear and you don't want to let people down.

You don't want to be a good leader for them. actually, when you say, I'm saying yes to this form of exercise or time for me to. Rejuvenate get my energy regulate or ground, whatever part of the day you're in. 

Toby Jenkins: Or even just a project, right? Hey, thanks for knocking on my door.

I'm working on this at the moment this works up or down an organization. Does this need to be more important than this? tell me what you've got and I'll make a decision if I have the decision making power or in the communication up, do you think this is more important than what I'm currently working on?

Because that enables a manager or leader to say, Oh yeah, keep going on that. 

Cherie Canning: I'll come 

Toby Jenkins: back to you. 

Cherie Canning: It's such a helpful question too. [00:25:00] I find I can be guilty of everything's important, kind of like, I just, yeah, yeah, let's go, let's go. everything's really exciting and let's do it now why wait?

it's such a superpower and such a kryptonite at the same time, when somebody says, which one's more important? It stops me in my tracks because I actually have to think. Okay. Let me think about this. Nope. We'll stick with this. it's great for me because otherwise I'm probably running too fast and need to take a breath and slow down to get clear.

And some people. What I've noticed from a leadership perspective, if people are working in a team with me then it's really hard for them to know, well, where do we, where do we start? And then they feel like maybe they're not contributing or letting people down, Just that question is so helpful for everybody, whichever end of the receiving or giving you're on the clarity, What is most important? if I say yes to this, what am I saying no to or vice versa? Such a good clarity question. 

Toby Jenkins: And in the framework of psychological flexibility, it's.

[00:26:00] A question to help get clear on what matters and then I'm going to do what matters. So what matters here? What matters in this context? How do I make sure that, we're both across what matters here and that I've got this right and that you've got this right as well. Okay, cool. Well, let's do 

Cherie Canning: that.

Yeah, that's so great. I love that triangle. It's fantastic. It's really powerful. How has this changed things for you personally? 

Toby Jenkins: The triangle or 

Cherie Canning: transitioning from the sport and then to where you are now, or even just in current day life, like the sport as exciting as it is to go, tell me more about the Olympics.

Like that's also a different chapter years later. you're in a different part of your life now. So on a day to day basis, how does it impact the way you lead your business, run your business with your family? 

Toby Jenkins: one of the interesting parts about this triangle is that all of them are never ending practices.

Yeah. 

Toby Jenkins: And I changed my approach [00:27:00] last year, away from goal setting to practice setting. 

Cherie Canning: Ah, this was on your email. I, receive your emails on a Monday and this was a great email. if this is where you're going now around the way that you, yeah, please, please continue. But I love that email. I forwarded onto some friends.

It was fantastic. So we must, put in the notes to sign up to your Monday emails cause they're great. 

Toby Jenkins: Thanks. just this idea that everything that is important in an ongoing practice, relationships, work, health, finances, I mean, really, if you boil it down, they're ongoing practices.

So getting clear on what really matters in the first place, I think. I've continued to evolve and sharpen my understanding of what really matters to me. and then, the practices around acceptance of, whether it's anger at my children, which is something I really want to work on this year.

I don't think I'm a bad dad. I actually think I'm doing a great job. There are points in my day, in my week where I would. Prefer to be less reactive. [00:28:00] and there's always work to be done. how do I continue the practice of learning to sit with it and still making choices that express love and care 

Boundaries and not at the cost to myself, but how do I keep finding this sort of neutral path? 

And 

Toby Jenkins: then the other part for me around the be present thing is I, over the last year or two, I've really doubled down on meditation and mindfulness practices. And I think one of the benefits of being a coach is that it forces you to be accountable to the things that you need to practice what you preach.

And so I love to start every coaching session with mindfulness. I make an effort to meditate ideally twice a day. Some days it happens, some days it doesn't, that's okay. But the recognition that it's a practice I want for the rest of my life.

it doesn't matter if I miss it today because I can go again tomorrow, but I don't want to let it go too long without getting it. recognizing the value of that means that I'm far more likely to adhere to that as a change. I've really benefited from that.

So [00:29:00] back to your question of how has this triangle impacted my life? I mean, really meaningfully in lots of different ways and really shaped my understanding of change. What I want to bring to the world getting clear on what really matters to me, my values, love, gratitude, humility, exploration, contribution.

How do they get expressed in as many moments as possible? Whether that's, in a relationship work or a conversation like this one, the micro really does reflect the macro in that. All these micro choices. And the other thing for me too, Cherie, sorry, is just this idea, trying to decouple who I am from what I do.

And so understanding that I play a lot of different roles in my life, but that's not necessarily who I am, if I take, my purpose and values purpose being change the world's relationship to suffering values, being love, gratitude, humility, exploration, contribution, and suffering, I sort of bunch up in a, I've labeled it Toby, cause it's a part of who I am now, [00:30:00] but you know, that's the imposter syndrome, anger as a parent, what have you.

How do I express each of those things through the roles that I'm playing in these moments per day? and so how do these, rather than the roles I'm playing being the definition of who I am, they become an expression of who I am. it's a set of practices, never ending practices.

So good. We're back to it. 

Cherie Canning: I love it so much. even now, when you've summarized it and said about your purpose and your values, you'd already spoken those, I think inherently through this conversation, which to me is. So much power, you know, working with individuals and coaching for them to be clear on their values and how it is they want to show up in the world and the human they wish to be rather than what we wish to do.

And doing is the vessel of, allowing that to come to life, isn't it? sometimes I feel like in our society we've got an opportunity to flip it the other way around. How often we even, you know, the default of, you know, hi, what do you do, where do you, and just to be able to, how do we reintroduce ourselves [00:31:00] in a more meaningful way?

I remember probably just becoming a mum. And then a slight detour in the career at that time on maternity leave, just to have that moment of like, who am I without this job that had defined me for so long? And I had all, all of my ego and all of my identity was swept up into this long term career and job, which served me mostly well.

who am I, you know, and then as the chapters of life change keep observing and asking, inquiring that answer because it's always evolving, it's fascinating how We don't have enough of that emphasis, which is the work you do. It's a work we do, you know, collectively, how do we, how do we keep bringing that awareness back to who are you as the human?

And I love Ben Crow talks about the human being versus the human doing, who I choose to be in this moment for all the different aspects of our 

life. 

Cherie Canning: not the binary of the good and the bad, the black and the white, but all of the human expression, it's all welcome, and when we embrace it, it's just fascinating, right?

Toby Jenkins: Not always [00:32:00] easy. No, by no stretch. 

Cherie Canning: Possibly more fulfilling because we're just more awake to life. 

Toby Jenkins: Yeah, the full spectrum of experience for sure. 

Cherie Canning: sometimes you want to push it away, but it's 

Toby Jenkins: no, not at all. 

Cherie Canning: Yeah. 

Toby Jenkins: Well, you know, psych flex is an evidence based calls that experiential avoidance.

You know, we try to avoid these internal experiences and it is a natural part of life. It's also super important in times that, we do avoid pain and we do avoid danger and all that kind of stuff. We probably wouldn't be here if we didn't do that. 

Cherie Canning: exactly. And it's recognizing, what do we say?

Like the prehistoric brain that's looking for Threats and fears to keep us safe these days what we now look at the unsafe environment is often the emotional unsafety isn't it and realizing that actually we still relatively safe like it's just that we put these walls up and go oh no that's not safe that doesn't feel good for me.

If we don't allow the discomfort to come in how often, just on reflection, the real lessons we learn about ourselves in life, don't always come from the joyful moments. [00:33:00] They come from the harder moments or the challenging or whatever label we want to put on. But. The black part of the yin and the yang potentially, you know, 

Toby Jenkins: I couldn't agree more. there's a white dot in there for a reason and I think, you know, certainly, and I've spoken to quite a few athletes about this too, the human experience is to look for the black dot on the white page, and try to make that black dot smaller, in doing so you zoom in the focus and all you've got left is just trying to refine, refine, refine, expanding the awareness and understanding and appreciating all the other stuff that's going on around us. That's part of the challenge too, at times, I think. 

Cherie Canning: Yeah, it's so true. I've just got that visual of the yin and yang in my head now. I'm like, yeah, why not focus in on the black, but what is the white dot in that black?

what can we learn from those experiences? I love that way of seeing that in life. it's not about, the toxic positivity of going on. This is a great thing when things are really feeling challenging, but what can I take? What can I learn? Maybe it's after the fact, but yeah.

And that's where that being present. It's so critical being present with what's, what's [00:34:00] occurring. We, did this exercise the other day and it was. Reminded me when you're saying about the different types and suffering, calling it Toby and the names. And, we created this little mud map of, you think about people talk about business all the time.

Have you got a board or a board of directors? in our own minds, the different. Thinking patterns that we have are the little personalities in our mind. Like imagine we mind mapping all of your, and then naming them. So we, this was part of this process. We did it, we got us, in the boardroom and be like, okay, if you're the CEO of your mind, who are these.

Some of the characters or like the CFO and I've got the CFO, Frankie. Frankie's probably on her third warning at the moment. but then linking to the thoughts. Positive, I'm going to say positive and negative intentionally here, but what are the things that, 

Some of the patterns that are really serving us. And what are some of those patterns of thoughts, as you say, thousands and thousands of thoughts that is just so habitual, we don't even recognize we're thinking them so often when I'm talking about X, I know that I can go into a bit of a [00:35:00] funk or over here is really when, I come alive when we talk about that topic, it's fascinating to then like name them and give them this personality.

So when those thoughts start coming in, it's not around, Putting them down or, the shame of it. It's kind of almost personalizing and go, right, well, if this was a real person in your team, you wouldn't yell at them going, you're an idiot. Why did you do that? Hopefully not, but you know, it's like the kindness and 

Speaking to yourself with that self love and awareness. Oh, okay. Well, how else we can look at this and rewiring our thoughts. But yeah, I don't know if you've ever done that. It was a fun little exercise. 

Toby Jenkins: I mean, that's a very specific part of. the ACT framework, which underpins psychological flexibility and labeling your thoughts, right?

Labeling those experiences or those patterns. And I love the question in PsychFlex, which is, is this useful to me? sometimes it is, I mean, the red alert as you're stepping onto the road without having heard the car that's coming and suddenly you step back and you realize that you [00:36:00] just had missed the car.

Like that is incredibly useful to you. 

Cherie Canning: Very practical. 

Toby Jenkins: But other times it's not, you know, stepping into a room or a boardroom or a presentation or what you know, suddenly the alarm bells are going. Is this useful to me? No, not necessarily. 

This is where gratitude becomes really interesting. I have been reasonably good at being grateful for the things in my life and the bits external to me what I realized a couple of years ago was it was time to turn the gratitude to the man in the mirror. how can I express gratitude to these experiences, say, Hey, thank you.

You know, captain of defense or the risk management role, how can you be genuinely grateful to those experiences? gratitude turned inwards. Can be, in my experience some of the hardest gratitude to wrap your head around.

Cherie Canning: Yeah. You know what? I haven't really had a conversation with people about this because you're So right. We talk about our last, episode of leader courage podcast at the end of [00:37:00] 24, it was with a guy called Cooper Chapman and he talks a lot about gratitude we had a huge discussion and it is literally.

Part of just who I am as a daily practice, and I think really amplified when our daughter was born and in hospital for a long period of time that. Was really when I, personally felt the impacts of gratitude in a dark time, rather than just when life is really great, it's easy to find those sparkles, isn't it?

And so it has been just who I am now and part of our family life and how often we do put it to the external, which makes sense too. there's validity there. too often, many humans. struggle to look within and find the self love, the self compassion, the self gratitude, unless it's become a practice.

So often it's. It's not, if you, I 

Toby Jenkins: suppose the look is in the mirror, 

Cherie Canning: isn't it 

Toby Jenkins: so often. Yeah. 

Cherie Canning: Yeah. Until we actually practice it, we, we, we're literally talking about this last [00:38:00] week in, 2008, a coach who is still a very dear friend of mine, but co facilitate this program. I keep referencing.

She said to me, I was going through a divorce and she was saying, you've got to look about a bit of self love and write a list of the things you love about yourself. I just struggled. I just couldn't do it to the point where I had to ask a friend, what do you think about me? So that I could get a little bit of validation externally, which clearly is not the top, but you've got to start somewhere.

it was tough. It was really tough and I'll never forget it. now through practice, not because I'm Anything special, but through practice, it's something that I've really established for many people, like, no, no, no, I can't say good things about my physical appearance or my personality.

We can talk about what we do for others, but not necessarily who am I at the core? I think about from a parenting lens, what if our children were saying that they couldn't see those things for them would be distraught, like, here's your list, but you know, we've got to, I think there's such an importance to be [00:39:00] putting that practice in for ourselves, to practice that and genuinely believe it.

Toby Jenkins: I think the belief comes, I don't know. Yeah. I'm here to sort of figure out whether or not belief comes later or whether it's just the ongoing practice. there's an interesting story and, the acceptance that this is how I feel. Sometimes that's okay. And that's okay.

I'd like to look somewhat different or whatever it might be, that it's okay to think that. And there's a really interesting story in Buddhism that I love, which is, Buddha and the demon Mara, who's sort of the demon of everything awful, have this cosmic battle and Mara goes away.

Buddha walks away unscathed, a little while later Buddha's at home, gets a knock at the door and he goes to the door, opens the door and there's the demon Mara standing there. he says to Mara, please come in. And treats Mara as a reviewed house guest. So welcome back, pours Mara tea first, Mara sits at the table, eventually Mara goes [00:40:00] away.

And this doesn't happen just once in this enlightened being's life, Mara keeps on knocking and these difficult, unhelpful thoughts. I think this is a big part of acting psych flex as well, is to recognize that it's okay to have them. You don't have to respond from that place.

they're going to keep on knocking, we may never feel content with how we look what we say what we do or how we parent there'll be something that we could have done better. So how do we sit with the fact that I'm okay, you're okay, we're okay.

It's really hard. 

Cherie Canning: Yeah, it is. It is. And do you think that there's so much of it that I feel like we're in such a binary? Environment where it's like either, or so it's either it's perfect or it's not enough. And so when you're saying around that, you know, it's okay to still want to improve something. And I couldn't agree more.

there's still ways that you might look in the mirror and go, Oh, I appreciate this about myself. And I'd [00:41:00] also like it to be stronger or, you know, more resilient or whatever it may be. And the two can also like to have both opposing thoughts at the same time. It's almost the goal to be able to acknowledge what is and still have growth mindset and want to grow and improve.

Yeah. The two can coexist. Well, you're back at yin yang again, right? Like actually saying that as the lived experience and the whole of everything. the minute that we try to not acknowledge that stuff or dismiss it or push it away, or we spend an enormous amount of time, money, effort, resource, you know, relationships, health is a huge consequence to just perpetually pushing and getting rid of that.

Toby Jenkins: So how do we learn to sit with it? 

Cherie Canning: Yes. Otherwise that Mara is knocking, Mara doesn't knock anymore. Mara's living in the house. Mara 

Toby Jenkins: kicks in the door. Yeah. Yeah. Sooner or later. 

Cherie Canning: Wonderful. if we go back to your goals and habits at the beginning of the year, can you share a little bit?

more around, what tips, you know, it's still fresh in the beginning of the year, but [00:42:00] even, even if we're in the middle of the beginning of the year, middle of the year, goals and habits can, be refreshed at any time. what takeaways from that, email and the way you're doing your goal setting and habits, can you share 

Yeah. 

Toby Jenkins: perhaps a work example might be the easiest way to highlight it. the way I approach this year is to. Consider purpose and values in light of that, go through, say in physical health as something I wanted to explore this year, what is my long game?

So what is the game that I want to play for the rest of my life? for me, that's, you know, being fit enough, strong enough, mobile enough, to run around after grandkids. So whether or not they arrive, in that time horizon. that is my long game based on that, what practices now in this week, this month, this quarter, this year will help me either support, maintain or improve.

the various aspects of physicality in order to do that. [00:43:00] one thing I'm working on this year is to get more aerobically fit. Last year was very much about strength and trying to recover from injuries.

This year I want to head in, you know, getting a bit more aerobically fit. What are the goals then? I might want to run 10 Ks. Or surf every fortnight with my brother. The practice then is, this weekly cadence of riding a bike three times a week, garage at home.

how do I assess where I'm at right now? that could be using a wearable. It might be going to do a max VO2 test, or you just get started. what's the plan? I punched into chat. GPT. Hey chat. I want to get more aerobically fit. I've got 20 minutes, three times a week.

I've got an exercise bike downstairs. The 20 minutes has to include warm up and warm down. Can you please. Deliver me a progression. I'm really into maximum aerobic function training. can you give me a progression based on that 

and put it 

Toby Jenkins: in one page, 15 seconds later, I have exactly what I need.

So I've got my plan. Then what's the [00:44:00] toolkit? I need an exercise bike and a heart rate monitor. Great. what is the system and structure? I'll diarise it. And what is my support and accountability? I'll talk to my wife about it and we'll organize our diaries around it for drop offs, pickups, all that kind of stuff.

When am I going to do it? I actually think that all of those things are what you need to know your long game, then you need to drill it back to what are my practices that support that long game. The goals are really an outcome of delivering on your practices, and one of the things around practices that I really push with my clients is to lower the bar.

Stop trying to expect that an exercise session has to take one hour. That's how I used to be wired too. I had to do perfect reps and all that kind of stuff. I've really had to unwind a lot of that because otherwise you're left with your binary thinking that you were saying it's an hour or nothing.

You can walk around the block for five minutes and that's infinitely better than doing nothing. 

Yes. 

Toby Jenkins: lower the bar. What is the smallest amount that you think? Constitutes a run or some aerobic [00:45:00] exercise and do that if you think it's 10 minutes, aim for five, three times a week.

If you think you need to do it daily, do it three times a week, aim for five minutes and then own that and deliver on it because you're playing a 20 year game, 40 year game. You don't have to deliver on it today. if you develop those practices and recognize it, and the slight distinction for me between practice and habit and routine is practice to me just feels a little bit more adaptable, whereas a habit is I train Monday, Wednesday, Friday, or a routine is I train Monday, Wednesday, Friday.

It feels very time bound, whereas a practice to me is I train three times a week. And if it's Monday this week and Tuesday the next, that's okay. 

Cherie Canning: Or flexibility within it. 

Toby Jenkins: Just a little bit more adaptability of the plan. Lower the bar so low you can't fail. which seems a bit counterintuitive, but I think is really, what is the smallest first step?

And even then, you know, how can you do one? I've put this challenge to a leadership group the other day is [00:46:00] rather than setting up a group training environment, cause they're all saying, Oh, we all need to be fitter. And then we thought, Oh, well maybe there could be, a group training environment.

Let's figure out some days and do all that. And I was like, no, no, no, no, just do one, just do one session together and see if it works. Lower the bar because otherwise you. Get lost in the logistics of perfect planning or perfect execution. And all of a sudden nothing happens. How about you just do one session tomorrow?

What is the next action you can take in the next 24 or 48 hours that will get you started? 

Cherie Canning: And then that momentum. 

Toby Jenkins: So, and the other part for me is, last year I really enjoyed, I decided it was practices times coaching. I had like eight coaches last year 

for 

Toby Jenkins: you 

Cherie Canning: saying that you had like some, all different realms of life or different, 

Toby Jenkins: yeah, 

Cherie Canning: too many.

Toby Jenkins: It was great. honestly, I think it was. Awesome. I loved it. I had strength and conditioning, had business, had coaching coach, I [00:47:00] had financial coach, I had speaking coach, I had all these people supporting me using minds, you know, way more experience than mine or, you know, further along the curve that I am.

to me, that's like accelerating progress, avoiding pitfalls. And on a compounding curve, the one thing you don't want to do is stop compounding. you don't want to go backwards if you can. one of my challenges, particularly my physical health standpoint is it's the old top young quote of son, your ego is running checks.

Your body can't cash. 

Classic, classic. Like 

Toby Jenkins: there's no point me training like an Olympian at age 45 and breaking myself, which is pretty much what I've been doing for the past three years. 

And I said to 

Toby Jenkins: my coach, mate, 

what am I doing? 

Toby Jenkins: every time I start, I stop. I get broken. I need you to really check me.

I need you to make sure that you've got the progressions nailed and they're less than what you think I could do. So then I can rebuild this stuff. 'cause I'm missing [00:48:00] foundational blocks here. I've done a ton of training, but I'm not managing myself very well, 

Cherie Canning: And then it comes back to that end goal, right?

When you're saying in 20 years time you want to be running around with potential grandkids, you're not saying I want to go to the Olympics again, if the goal was to go to the Olympics again, then maybe that is. Different strategy, 

but that 

Cherie Canning: isn't your goal right now. You've done the Olympics.

And so, yeah, what is it all for? I think that question to keep coming back, what's the why, what's it really for? What do you really want? Sometimes answering that can be one of the. Toughest questions to answer. But once we've got that clarity, then yeah, what am I saying?

Yes. to edge me closer to that. often that's 

Toby Jenkins: inherently fulfilling as well. Back to your point earlier, like that is inherently fulfilling, in hindsight, I would say I went to the Olympics to try to feel fulfilled, you know, to feel as though I was good enough or something, and I got about two weeks of contentment and then I dismissed it for 18 years.

I really didn't talk about it until I started writing about it a couple of years ago. 

Isn't that 

Toby Jenkins: mind blowing? 

It [00:49:00] is mind blowing. 

Toby Jenkins: But it is near universal. I speak to gold medalists, silver medalists, I spoke to a silver medalist a decade of disappointment after an Olympic silver medal because the expectation was gold.

Felt like, bomb the gold. It's quite sad about how we operate in this respect, you know? Yeah, 

Cherie Canning: yeah. It's mind blowing. And for someone who is nowhere anywhere, even close to an Olympic, the close I'll ever come to Olympics is watching it. Oh, I attended Sydney 2000 as a, as an audience. Incredible. And, but as a fellow Aussie, you're just cheering them on no matter what, 

Well, actually, no, we sit there and go, Oh, they didn't get the gold. They didn't get the gold, depending on who it is and what the media puts on, but you're just happy for people being there. Right. And when you put it in your own lens, in your own life, that's different.

yeah, I can't even imagine the pressure and the [00:50:00] expectation It's not an overnight thing. Like you say, it's years and you started playing water polo when you're in high school. So it's years and years of your life, absolutely sacrificing or, honing in on that goal 

Choosing it. Yeah. Sacrifice is a bit of a big word, but you know, the choices you make to achieve that. I guess I 

Toby Jenkins: said sacrifice at the time. So Sheree, I think with perspective I've come to really disagree with sacrifice as a word, given that that is something that happens to us, whereas as soon as you recognize that there's a choice here and I'm making a choice, I'm choosing to not go out with my mates because I want to go to Olympic games, particularly in the athletic world, I think it gets peddled way too hard.

yes, there are people who put everything on the line, you know, military emergency services and that kind of stuff where, wow, that's really some binary outcomes in some of those situations. but for most of us, the sooner we recognize that we're making a choice here, the better.

if I could only choose one thing out of psych flex, that would be [00:51:00] kind of the recognition is, you know, open up to acknowledge what's going on for you. Be present enough to recognize the choice and then make that choice. if there was only one word I could pass on to people out of this whole conversation, it would be choice because ultimately that's what it boils down to.

it doesn't make it easy. It doesn't make it simple. the choices that we make. 

Cherie Canning: that's all we have. That's within our control always. 

Toby Jenkins: It is the only thing we have genuine control over, I think.

Cherie Canning: . One of the values you mentioned was contribution. So I would love just to maybe round out our conversation today on, can you share a little bit about. the CEO Sleepout team, and both going back for it again this year, which will be in June.

And so for anyone listening and they're interested in being a part of it, or to, to contribute or donate in any way, that invitation is always there. But can you tell me what was that experience like for you and what's making you come back the second time as far as, the Vinny CEO Sleepout. And the contribution.[00:52:00]

Yeah. 

Toby Jenkins: one, I thought Vinny's did just a beautiful job of not just talking about it, but helping us to experience some of the challenge of what homelessness means. one of those exercises that they got us to do was you have, I think it was 70 a week to live on, you know, you're in a community housing setup, so you don't need to worry about rent, but you need to show up fresh for your job.

You need to shave and you need deodorant, so you don't smell too bad. What are you going to do with your other, effectively 50 

Cherie Canning: to eat for the week. And that price list we had to allocate, 

Toby Jenkins: How will you spend your money? What choice will you make here? really confronting.

that sort of beautiful experience of having you immersed in it without ramming it down your throat, which I think must be such a fine line for charities to walk when the stories are so confronting The other thing that I found really interesting was the triggers for [00:53:00] homelessness.

So there are so many, domestic violence, obviously being a huge. Contributor to homelessness and, but also the almost incidental nature of what, like, it's only sort of tiny, tiny differences that all of a sudden, you know, a kid breaks their arm, the 250 bill means that you can no longer pay the rent.

And that's it. I no longer have a home. so where I guess my preconception was, big events must've happened to homeless people for them to end up on the street the drugs and alcohol and all that kind of stuff, and the mental health, was really transformed or the nuance around just how small the change can be that ends up with someone being homeless.

And then the subsequent flow and effect of, Well, I mean, how would I go if I was on the street with my kids, would I cope? I have, the network to support all that kind of stuff around me. So, you [00:54:00] know, that was something that was really brought home for me as well.

the other lesson that I really took from that whole night and experience was to see the human behind the homelessness. To acknowledge that, you go up and introduce yourself. I remember, shortly after I walked past, a guy lying on a bench in town and I thought, I can't just walk past this guy anymore.

And I had my water bottle under my arm because I'd just done a presentation. I went up to him and said, Hi, I'm Toby. And, he said, Oh, hi. I was like, wow, how many times is this person not seen in a day by thousands of people walking past that was the other piece I really took from it the humanity behind the homelessness and understanding.

Yeah. There's a person here. It's not just a problem either. there's a person within it and there is some power to do something about it. 

Cherie Canning: It's huge, isn't it? we talked about the practices and the compounding of practices in a positive light in our lives earlier. And it's similar thing, but in [00:55:00] possibly the opposite direction where.

Just not being seen, not being acknowledged, not mattering to society in a way, we don't know people's stories and when one person can acknowledge that person and, speak with that person, I wonder what trajectory that can drive as well. you never really know the difference that you stopping and saying hello could have made for that person. 

Toby Jenkins: it's probably a drop in the ocean and chances are it doesn't change a lot, but the whole idea is that, you know, if there were many of those interactions that would compound over time.

Yeah. 

Cherie Canning: there's one of my favorite books, conversations. she has this quote about not every conversation is guaranteed to change a life, yet any conversation can. I really, love that. I think that's a beautiful way to go through life if we can bring a kind.

Genuine conversation. You never know what impact that's going to have. shout out. If anyone wants to come and join us CEO sleep out, it's a shameless plug for sure, but it's an important, [00:56:00] it's an important way. Contribute back to our, our community. And I think with the Olympics coming up we've got a responsibility to make a difference. 

Toby, I have absolutely loved being in conversation with you. thank you so much for sharing your experiences, the frameworks, your perspective , it's really been a joy. 

Toby Jenkins: Thanks Cherie. Thanks so much for having me. I do love this work and I feel like it's a privilege to share this, thanks for taking the time and hopefully people get something from it.

Cherie Canning: Well, I know they will for sure. Thank you.