Hayley Van De Ven | Building Bold Business and Culture

In this episode, Cherie is joined by real estate powerhouse and entrepreneur Hayley Van De Ven, owner of multiple RE/MAX businesses and ambassador for Four Voices. Together, they explore what it means to lead with courage — from navigating tough conversations and setting boundaries, to building magnetic culture and a strong personal brand.

Hayley shares her journey from a teenage Kiwi receptionist to CEO of five businesses, including three RE/MAX offices and a thriving virtual assistant company. Her story is one of values-driven leadership, resilience, and unwavering authenticity. Whether you're an aspiring leader or seasoned entrepreneur, this episode is packed with relatable lessons and bold inspiration.

Key Takeaways

• What “lead with courage” means to Hayley
• The secret to creating values-led culture
• Her powerful morning routine and energy rituals
• Balancing leadership, parenting, and personal ambition
• How to handle rejection and build sales resilience
• Growing from one RE/MAX office to five businesses
• The importance of personal brand and showing up as your best self
• Hayley’s impactful role as an ambassador for Four Voices

Some of Hayley’s Mic Drop Moments:

"Your vibe attracts your tribe — and that starts with you."
 "When you talk a big game, you’ve got to walk a big game."
 "If you’ve got the skills to start over, you’ve got nothing to fear."
 "Not every hard conversation needs to be a written warning — delivery is everything."

Resources & Mentions:

• Four Voices – Support for women facing domestic violence, homelessness & isolation
• Sonia Stradiotto Couture – Power suits for powerful women
• Vinnies CEO Sleepout – National fundraiser to support homelessness services

Connect with Hayley Van De Ven

💼 RE/MAX Results | Bayside | Bayside Properties:

• Website: https://www.remaxresults.com.au
• Facebook: facebook.com/REMAXResultsQLD
• Instagram: @remaxresults
• LinkedIn (Office): RE/MAX Results

👤 Hayley Van De Ven:

• Instagram:

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Thanks for joining us on the Lead with Courage podcast, bought to you by Luminate Leadership. We trust this episode has given you some insights and joy to empower you live your biggest, best life.

If you enjoyed it, we'd be grateful if you like, share and subscribe to hear our future conversations.

To find out more about the work we do Luminate Leadership connect with us:
Luminate's Website and LinkedIn and on
Instagram : Luminate_Leadership and Cherie Canning

Until the next episode, we hope you live and Lead with Courage!
Cherie x
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Luminate Leadership is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you’re struggling, please see a healthcare professional, or call lifeline on 13 11 14.

Transcript

Welcome to the Lead with Courage podcast, brought to you by Luminate Leadership, where bold conversations spark real change. Here, we dive into the stories, insights, and lessons from leaders who challenge the status quo, inspire action, and lead with heart. If you're ready to grow, learn, and lead with courage, you're in the right place.

Hi, I'm Chloe Canning. Luminate Leadership acknowledges the traditional custodians of the land, which we would call this part of the class, the Uyghur and Terrible People. We pay respect to the elders past, present, and emerging 

Cherie Canning: hayley, welcome to the Lead with 

Courage podcast. It [00:01:00] is so good to have you here today. 

Hayley Van De Ven: Oh, thank you so much for having me. I know 

we've tried a couple of times to make this work, but it's exciting to finally be here.

Cherie Canning: We are here and so it's going to be worth wait, that's for sure. It is so wonderful to have you here. I'm really excited today to talk about you as a business owner, your journey and your career. Talking about leadership and something I've always admired for you. And what I see is how you create incredible culture within your business.

So really excited to get into all of that today. Before we do, I would like to ask you the question we ask every guest on our podcast, which is what does lead with courage mean to you? 

Hayley Van De Ven: For me, lead with courage is sounds really probably basic. It's having the tough conversations. It's knowing what your values are and being prepared to hold the line when that's not a popular decision.

Cherie Canning: Yes. Yes. So true.

Hayley Van De Ven: It is it's a really hard environment to be in. I guess in this day and age when there are so many popular [00:02:00] opinions and sometimes your opinion is not the most popular but I guess when you have. a belief in how you want to run your business or how you'd like your team culture to look.

You've got to know what your values are and be prepared to stand up for them. 

Cherie Canning: Yeah, absolutely. Can I ask you, this is a personal question to jump straight in, but what are some of your values personally? 

Hayley Van De Ven: Oh, look for me, I'm very people driven. So for us, if I think about my actual job as a CEO or as a principal of the business I'm non selling and I have heads of department in each of, the business units in our business.

So if I look at what my job is as a CEO, it's people, and not in an HR, people and culture piece, but in a people bringing together, creating the vision, getting people on board, all rowing the boat in the same direction, like all the cliche things that you've heard before. But it's the visionary piece as well, and making sure that I've made plenty of mistakes, like each time that we make a mistake, we learn and we certainly grow.

I think for me the values in our business, like we've [00:03:00] got some, corporate values, like we get shit done. We move fast. We're commercially minded. We grant people's dreams, like all of these five or six key values for us that are like extremely important, and.

ingrained in the fabric of our business. But my job is like chief reinforcement officer. 

Cherie Canning: Yes. I love that. Reinforcing the values, keeping everyone in line to the vision where we're headed. 

Beautiful. 

Hayley Van De Ven: Consistency, right? I've always been of the thought process that if you talk a big game. You have to walk a big game.

So that means if, if I'm constantly saying, Hey, you need to like, you've got to be in a eight you've got to be smashing that the day, you've got to have a great early morning routine. You've got to, like all of the things that I would love to emulate success in our high performance culture.

If I'm going to say that I have to live that. 

Cherie Canning: Yes, absolutely. Otherwise it's just words, and it doesn't inspire people. It's hollow. Is absolutely how we lead the example that we get set is always going to be the bar for our teams. 

Hayley Van De Ven: It is like the energy that we bring into a room, my [00:04:00] expectation is that people are responsible for their own energy that they bring into the room.

And like this morning when I rushed in and I'd had this ridiculous morning and it was like, okay, we just need a minute before, we start because life happens and it's then what we decide to do with it, 

Cherie Canning: isn't it? It's so funny that we've gone into this now because you're absolutely right.

And off air, we're saying like, I haven't got shoes on. I've got the oils on. Like I'm really just calm and relaxed because today I've got a whole heap of podcast conversations. And what I know the energy I need is to be fully present, fully on and engage in the conversation. If I'm rushing. I'm just not going to be present.

And so that's what I asked myself today. All right, what do I need this morning to have this energy, to hold space, have deep conversation. And that for me is a little bit of oils, a bit of water and just living your best life. I know my shoes off as I'm sitting opposite you in your divine suit and shoes as always, but yeah, finding the time and the place for the energy that we need and resetting when life. [00:05:00] Throws the curve ball or doesn't always go to plan or three or four curve balls in a row before nine a. m. Before you even drop the kids off. Great. And I'm actually going to ask you about that. Not about your kids and the curve balls this morning, but what is your morning routine? And we're going to get into your career and the businesses and everything, but just while we're here on that, what is morning routine look like for you, Hayley?

Hayley Van De Ven: I like to have the first hour to myself. So between five and six like I'll wake up quite gently at five o'clock. My alarm goes off and it. but I'm usually awake at about 4. 45. But that's get out of bed, start the morning. So for me, some days it's going to look like going to the gym.

I'd love to say that I go to the gym every morning. But that's a lie. Because some days I'm just not feeling it. And I also think I've got to the point now where I'm real enough with myself to be like, Hey, if I can go to the gym a couple of times a week. I'm actually okay with that. It's not an every morning thing for me because you might have meetings like yesterday I had a breakfast meeting had to be in Wellington point at six 30, like that kind of stuff, like life happens and rather than holding [00:06:00] myself to an unrealistic expectation and then being disappointed that I've failed I wanted to set myself up for success.

So it's if that morning routine between five and six looks like getting up. Grabbing a coffee, going out and sitting in on my back deck, doing some journaling organizing my thoughts, checking out my calendar going through and just, like organizing my day in my own mind. God forbid my kids wake up before six, which did happen this morning, hence why I had one of those mornings.

When they do get up. You're in total mum mode. So that hour between five and six is that hour for me, just to have a moment of peace in all of the chaos that happens for the rest of the day. 

Yeah, it's 

Hayley Van De Ven: so 

Cherie Canning: critical, isn't it? 

Hayley Van De Ven: It's so important. You got to be out the door by 7. 45 with our kids to drop them off.

And that traffic between Seven Hills and East Brisbane is hectic. So you're like go. If you leave at 7. 46. I'm like, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to say swear words, so I'll just bleep myself. But in saying that, like that's where it's like the kids [00:07:00] get out of the car, eight o'clock for drop off, a big sigh of relief goes over me.

It's almost like my shoulders just relax. And then I've got a few minutes to drive to work. It's game time. 

Cherie Canning: Yes. So powerful. And what I love in particular is about the adaptability of that. So sometimes we can get caught up, as you said, that we feel like we've failed and we're not being successful because we haven't stuck to this really rigid routine, but I think that's the difference between a practice and knowing what you need to set yourself up versus.

Really rigidity is sometimes a rigidity 

Hayley Van De Ven: actually is harmful. I only realized in the last couple of years how much I appreciate routine. Certainly having kids on school holidays demonstrated to me that I really actually need routine. Yes. And. Like I've been a salesperson since I was 18 years old. So certainly from my perspective, routine is just not even a thing.

Like you're just going with it. You're going where the work is. You're working when you need to work. You're putting in the hours. It's a discipline, but it's not really a routine. And I think it's only been in the last [00:08:00] year or two that I've actually really leaned into the fact that although it's not rigid.

The absence of routine in my life as like a business person as a parent in particular can be really chaotic. 

Cherie Canning: Yes. And is it right in reflecting this back that it's about the routine for your energy versus like we go where the work is and we're, how many businesses do you lead now? Do you have?

Hayley Van De Ven: We're at five now yeah, it's been a really crazy last year and a bit. And in that time we've launched a couple of new businesses that are just allied businesses to, help our real estate business build value for the landlords and sellers. But certainly from our perspective, it's all hands on deck go.

Pretty much 24 seven. Particularly for the startups, like anybody that's done a startup, you understand that it's hustle and grind at the start. Whereas I've had the remix businesses now for 10 years. They're far more established and they need less of me, which has given me the opportunity to, put some blood, sweat and tears into other things.

Cherie Canning: Yeah. And there's that [00:09:00] maturity in those businesses now. So and leaders that are operating rhythms and their success. Yeah, totally. Obviously we've always too good at. Have the eyes on, but it's not as hands on for you. 

Hayley Van De Ven: Oh, yeah. I, you can't walk away. I think it's always been my ambition to build businesses that don't need me anymore.

And I think when I bought the base site a couple of years ago, it was because that the results business didn't really need me as much. I was like, I've built myself out of a job. What am I thinking? So I went and bought an even bigger business. And. I'm just like, fuck, that was stupid.

Looking back, great opportunity and, don't regret it for a second. But I certainly if I had that time again, I probably would have done it differently. So tell me, let's go back to the beginning. How did you get into real estate? When I was 17, I moved here from New Zealand. You probably pick up a little bit of an accent here and there.

A little. And I just thought I'd have a year, just a gap year, and then I would go and, Do what heaps of Kiwi kids do. They go do a year overseas and they do an OE and then they go home to New Zealand and they go to [00:10:00] uni. And I was just gonna do like a bachelor of arts and become a teacher.

That was what I was thinking. Yeah. Wow. Maybe a police officer that was like a dream job. But certainly from my perspective, I did catch you suit the colors if you had 

Cherie Canning: the navy and the white. 

Hayley Van De Ven: Yeah. Yeah. It's a bit of a vibe. Just on brand, yeah. But. I got here I started working in reception at a Ray White business.

I very quickly got told that I was allowed to start sales. So I started working for a salesperson as an assistant. He was about 60 years old. He used to eat food out of people's fridges, steal fruit off their trees, fall asleep at open homes. Like all the things as like a young. We talked about modeling by example, role models, that was a great lesson and what not to do.

And what was amazing about that experience is I started this like mental list of these are the things that I won't be, these are the values that I, wouldn't compromise, like lying, like the behavior that it was sitting in front of me was quite horrifying.

So I was like, and he was such a lovely old guy, but he just didn't care. You know what I mean? Like he didn't [00:11:00] really need the job. It was just like side hustle for him. And my principal was very generous and said after six months of working with that guy that I could go out on my own and.

Firstly, now looking back, I'm like, Oh my God, who would have hired 18 year old me with my huge white collar and my horrendously peroxided blonde hair. Horrendous. Like horrendous. 

Cherie Canning: I always need to get a photo of that and put it into the show notes or something in here and find it for you. Would you?

And we'll add it to the socials and be like, when Hayley referenced this hair, here it is. This is what I was talking about. And 

Hayley Van De Ven: even more it was like a. The particular photo I'm thinking of, I'm like wearing like a mission Brown Rockman's suit with this huge lapel and I'm like, Oh, 2003. It's just the epitome of that, and the.

Very thin eyebrows. Good times. Oh yeah. Good times. 

Cherie Canning: Yeah. 2003. I started my career at flight center and we were wearing the ombre ah, polyester shirts. Yeah. I hear you. It 

Hayley Van De Ven: was [00:12:00] a chapter. It was good times. But yeah, I did sales for 12 years. And then in that time got to experience, like different levels of that was promoted into a sales management role of one person, cute which was a nice step at 24.

So experienced that type of those leadership roles quite early. Certainly from a real estate perspective, usually that doesn't come along until a little bit later. Only to moving into a corporate space when I think I was 30. Yeah. From there I worked at Remax Australia and sold franchises.

And for two years. That was my role. It was a really great insight to incredible business people, because learning the sales side of things, that was okay. Like I could do that, through and through, it was something that I was extremely competent in. But the business side of things was, a huge eye opener.

So I got to be exposed to some incredible business owners across the country, because obviously I was trying to flip them into Remax businesses. And after two years of that. There was an opportunity to buy the Morningside office that popped up in [00:13:00] 2016. And I had done such a great job of selling it to someone else that I sold it to myself.

Cherie Canning: Listening to your own advice. 

Hayley Van De Ven: And that's what we did. So yeah, 2016, we bought Morningside as like a legacy business, 2017. I opened a startup in Mackay, a little Remax results up there, which is an incredible business that I've since sold off the new owners there that were salespeople in that business.

In 2021, we bought the Bayside office. So now we have the, the three left. So we've got results, Bayside and Bayside properties out into the spreading from the East to the Bayside. 

Cherie Canning: Beautiful. How many people are in those businesses collectively these days? 

Hayley Van De Ven: 120 in the real estate businesses, and we're just building out the allied services now.

Cherie Canning: That's incredible. Congratulations. Thank you. It's an 

incredible journey. And backing is, I just love that, hearing that from selling, being the sales person of the franchisees and then you're like, okay, I can do this. Tell me when you talk about sales [00:14:00] and competency and I really believe being a salesperson is just in the fabric of life. So whether you're selling a concept yourself or actually a product, but what does sales mean to you if you're training someone new, like what makes a good salesperson? 

Hayley Van De Ven: I think there's two key things. Personal brand in a sales person is actually, I believe the most important thing sales as a process.

So personal brand is obviously you and I sitting down and then exchanging energy and you being like, Oh, I really like her as a person because people buy things from people they like. And also, like I have the confidence in her ability to do the job for me. So for me, that's always the, that's always a great.

Closing question. It's Sheree, have you got the confidence in my ability to do the job for me? 

Cherie Canning: I love that question. It's 

Hayley Van De Ven: Oh, but for me, it would be for you. Yes. And you're like, okay. Yeah, I do. And then, in sales, obviously it's the old trick of like she who talks first loses. So shut up.

Yes. And just allow them to [00:15:00] answer, listen, like they're just key things that maybe they don't teach you in sales 101, but at the same time, I look at that and think it's just. Like decent, you ask a question and you listen for the answer so that you can help them solve a problem.

And certainly from a sales perspective in real estate and in most businesses once you have the belief in yourself, it's very easy to sell that belief. If you don't believe in it. You might as well just walk away. 

Cherie Canning: Yeah, that's so true. Yeah. How many times has people said no to the confidence when you've asked that question?

It's a pretty hard question to say no to. Yeah, I'm wondering about that. 

Hayley Van De Ven: Yeah, I don't even know. Have you ever had it? I don't know if I've ever had a no from that particular question. I think it's a powerful closing question. But I probably have had a couple of Oh yeah, we are confident in your ability.

However, you haven't answered this question or that question for me, which is a great opportunity to double back and be like, okay, yes, let's go over [00:16:00] that for you now. 

Cherie Canning: Yes. 

Hayley Van De Ven: So ultimately you're just working those yeses towards. The end game, which is, yeah, we are confident. Let's move forward.

And I think the biggest mistake that salespeople make is they actually don't ask the question. Some people are assumptive closes which if you look at different styles, I'm probably more of an assumptive close. So I just assume the business. And then we go on the journey and it's Oh, great.

Okay. Excellent. And we move in board. Yeah. Okay. Wonderful. Wonderful. You're happy. Let's just start going through the paperwork. So it's not like a hard close. Yeah. And, but that's because I feel like we've built that rapport. I actually can offer the service that they require and that I'm not going to let them down.

Yes. Because when I know that I'm not going to let them down and we can provide them a great result, it's almost a no brainer, and it's we've listened to what they've, been able to put on the table, we do have, a world class process that's going to help them achieve what they want to help.

Have at the end of the day and, if I'm comfortable that we tick all of those boxes. We want to make sure that they're comfortable, that we tick all those boxes and then we can move forward. [00:17:00] Yeah, 

Cherie Canning: so great. Can I ask around someone saying no, I, I used to reflect on this when we're in flight center days and the difference between an objection to rejection and not taking something on personally.

Yeah. And I would often say unless you failed to build rapport, then it probably is personal. But otherwise if you've built rapport and then someone says, no, how do you develop your people or remind your people to build that inner resilience and belief? Cause as you said, belief in yourself is critical.

So if you're getting nos what's the balance there. And I think this is in real estate, but also anything where people are not getting the yeses that they desire, and then it's impacting their inner confidence and esteem. 

Hayley Van De Ven: I think just remembering that it's a numbers game. So it doesn't matter if you're, making calls like cold calls, for example, which no real estate agent likes to make.

There's no question about it. However, in the training process, before you develop a network and do all the things and, create a personal brand, you've got to actually master the skill of being able to get on the [00:18:00] phone, having a conversation with someone where they're probably going to tell you to fuck off.

Yeah and that's okay, because you think like for every time you're told to go get stuffed, if each of those paid you a hundred bucks, how many times would you keep saying no to get you to the result that was 10 grand commission or whatever it may be, so it's like when you break it down, if you know that, look, realistically, I've got to make a hundred calls today to get three or four appointments.

And then what does three or four appointments get you that gets you. Opportunities to get through the door, I have a 50 percent conversion rate. So on that, I know that, that three or four appointments is going to get me to, to quality leads and just breaking it back down from there. And when you know your numbers, it's actually not as scary because you're going, okay, cool.

This is a process. I've got to hit these targets before I can get the result that I require. And when you get every, no, it's just okay, cool. That's a no tick. done. That's one less call I need to make to get to where I need to go. And being really clear on that, I think makes it less personal.

It's not an attack on you. And like I [00:19:00] always laugh, I'm like, people hate real estate agents. So like, why would they want to chat with you? And it's not about. You're a bad person. It's just perception. And often it's like that awkward, like party killer when people like, Oh, what are you doing?

They're like, Oh, you're in real estate. And they're like,

Oh yeah, it's so funny. And you're just like, Oh shit, here we go. I also think it comes from, like after 23 years, you just, you're probably at a point where you're like, that's okay. I don't take that personally. Most real estate agents are to kids. Like it's okay, cause you're not one of those people and you're confident in your own ability, but also confident in the fact that you're not going to be shoving, or trying to sell them something while they're at a barbecue or whatever it may be.

There's a time for professionalism and obviously leaning into your skillset. And there's a time when you can just be a really great human and, be authentic in who you are. 

Cherie Canning: Yeah. And that's enough because then when you come back to the personal brand, when people go, Oh, I like that person.

I trust that person. They're a good hang, as my husband would [00:20:00] say. We often say, if we ever to grow, when we grow the business, first and foremost, they're just going to be a good hang. Would you actually want to spend time and exchange energy with someone? 

Hayley Van De Ven: It's the pub test, right?

Would you want to go to the pub with them and have a beer? Yeah. And if you wouldn't, then you're like, no thanks. And I think that can also be quite a difficult thing to cross because persona and personal brand like it's so funny. I remember years ago a friend of mine saying, Oh, like you've got such a resting bitch face.

And I'm like, Oh, really? That's just me concentrating. That was literally I was like do I seem like a bitch? And it was really great feedback though, because I was mindful of the fact that, Oh, when I'm sitting there concentrating and sure enough, last year I saw a video of me in a interview and I absolutely had a resting bitch face and I was like, Oh my God, it's true.

And I'd even already had Feedback. So it really cemented it to me when I saw it with my own two eyes on a video that, Oh, when I concentrate, I actually look like I [00:21:00] want to light someone on fire. Don't do that. No, not actually how I feel. It's just how it looks like. I feel a hundred percent. 

I know we're going wildly off topic, but certainly, that for me it's just good in, in building out who you are as a brand and making sure that, if you're an authentic, approachable, friendly, person Look the same.

Cherie Canning: Yes. Yeah. There's consistency there. So when you bump into someone in the street or at a coffee shop, or you're seeing them on Instagram or LinkedIn, it's the same person. 

Hayley Van De Ven: Totally. And it would be like like even when you're building out your personal brand in social media, if your photos didn't reflect who you really were.

Or, like everybody got a bit carried away with their, Instagram filter and gave themselves like incredible cheekbones when, you're like carrying an extra 10 gigs. Like that kind of stuff that you're like, Oh, you, need people, particularly people that are following you on socials to better see you on the street and know that it's you.

Cherie Canning: Yes. Yes. That's 

so true. And it's, and as we age or our bodies change, as you [00:22:00] say keeping that current, how funny is it when you see someone's photo and you go. You're beautiful. And that photo was from 15 years 

Hayley Van De Ven: ago and there's quite a difference here. I know, even like the biopic that I sent you.

And I was like, I'm actually just about to have new photos. For that reason. And it's, it, that wasn't even that long ago, but you're like, I'm actually like, I've got to update that my hair is longer now, like as much as I love it when I had a little short blonde Bob, that's actually not what I look like now.

Cherie Canning: Yes. It's a reminder for me. I need to get some new photos too, but it is just that. Constantly reflecting where you are right now. Yeah. What else about personal brand other than, photography actually is a huge piece, but what else for personal brand? Because that is something I know you from your personal brand.

And then I've actually met you, and yeah, very much very much. And a hundred percent and would now be the time to tell you it wasn't no. No, I don't think so. Yeah. 

Hayley Van De Ven: At this point I was like, Oh, this is like that awkward closing when you let me say no. 

Do you have the confidence?

Cherie Canning: Do you have the confidence? Is it consistent? No, not [00:23:00] really. Yeah, no, absolutely. It is. And actually I feel like when I see you in person, it's even bigger and like your energy is even greater. And. Yeah, it is consistent. So what are the tips for people? Cause I think this is that fine line around who do I want?

How do I want to be seen? And regardless of the industry people are in, we're talking to leaders and people who are on their own corporate or personal professional journeys. Yeah. What, how do you build that brand with authenticity? 

Hayley Van De Ven: I think that's the key. The authenticity is the key and the consistency of brand.

It would be like if I was changing my brand all my colors constantly, it was like for me, obviously, like we have our business brand colors that I keep pretty consistent. I'm really mindful of the fact that I am representing a business as well as my personal brand.

So I try and tie that in. And from a personal brand perspective, I also think that I try and make sure that I dress, like in accordance to the role that I have. 

Cherie Canning: Yes. 

Hayley Van De Ven: It would be [00:24:00] really easy for me to wear my pajamas. Do you know what I mean? It would be really easy to throw on a disguise and hide behind the fact that, like I do have these, large businesses to run and I'm the sole business owner.

So all of that responsibility sits on me. Yes. It's not lost on me that, for me, I do wear a suit pretty much every day. 

Cherie Canning: Not the Rockmans anymore. 

Hayley Van De Ven: I I said, I'm going to sound like such a dick and say this, but I actually was at Gwangana a couple of years ago after I lost my mom and I was sitting in the steam room and I started chatting to this lady.

She'd also just lost her mum. I think Gwangana is a beautiful place to go when you're healing and, trying to find yourself again. And this lady turned out to be one of my girls because she was hiding up in the the quiet room like a day or two later, and she was doing payroll and you can't have any tech at Gwangana.

So I'm like, how is your fucking phone working? Oh my God, my phone doesn't work here. And she's Oh, I'm just doing payroll. I was [00:25:00] like, girl, I got you. So I went and like basically guarded the stairs so she wouldn't get caught. But she's turned out to be one of my most beautiful friends. And I can tell you that I'm proudly dressed by her almost every day now.

Sonia Stradiato. She makes incredible suits. Yeah. Incredible suits for women. I think the thing that I absolutely adore about her is that like her whole ethos is about making, women feel confident in what they wear and dressing them to the absolute nines. And certainly every piece that I've had has been a real great investment in my personal brand.

But also. In the confidence I feel walking into a boardroom or walking into, like a meeting with the bank or, if you're going to go and ask the bank for a couple of million dollars to buy a new rent roll maybe don't go in and in pajamas. 

Cherie Canning: Yes. Yes. Or your jeans with no shoes on today for me.

Hayley Van De Ven: Well, babe, you're not asking anyone for money today, so it's okay. But like that whole I guess for me it was also about building my future, Hayley. Yes. So it was like, okay what does the best [00:26:00] version of me look like? What does that feel like? What does that person wear?

How do they show up every day? Like I don't want to show up like a frazzled mess because I've had the worst morning ever. Yes. I don't want to roll into work with like negative drama energy because I've just had to scream at my kids in the car and be like, you don't want to take that into where you are.

You want to walk in. Feeling relaxed, feeling like, in your zone and that you're going to have the best day. 

Cherie Canning: And it's so beautiful. I love actually, when I followed Sonia and Fleur Madden wears a lot of Sonia's outfits too. And I really believe that. It feels so different. It's not about I don't see it about being for anyone else.

And so how do you feel, we were only discussing that this week where on Mondays we come into the office and it's still you look nice and you're ready that if we need to do any photography or any videos, you're ready and on. And I was saying that I have another in my spare room, I've got my cupboard where they're my outfits for when I'm presenting or when [00:27:00] I'm speaking.

Yeah. And. That's when you just elevate that and it feels great. Like I feel great in myself and it's finding the clothing and the colors or the fit or whatever, the fabric or whatever it is. And not in a materialistic way, in a way that it lifts your energy. And if you feel good in the way that you're presenting, then that confidence builds and you just not, it's subconscious.

I think, then you just walk into a room feeling different and it's power. 

Hayley Van De Ven: You do. And I think, That's six seconds where you have to make a impression on somebody. This is so funny. The first thing that I thought this morning when I saw you is, Oh my God, look at your beautiful eyebrows.

Like it was literally, I may not have said it, but it was the very first thing that I thought as I looked you in the eye and you showed up with this magnetism that is your energy and whether or not you're feeling it today because things are going on and we've both flown into the, office like duh your energy was not that.

Yeah. Which was incredible. 

Cherie Canning: Thank you. Yes. Yes. Thank you. Thank [00:28:00] you. And that's the authenticity, isn't it? I think the intention every morning and we say about moving into work, I'd say it's similar with our families, isn't it? That I remember, Oh, this is many years ago. Andy, my husband said to me, and it was so cutting, like it was your friend saying about the resting bitch face.

And it was when I had a pretty demanding job at flight center and about 120 people similar to yourself. And you'd just come home all spent. I didn't really understand how to manage my energy. And I remember him saying to me, do you realize that we get all your leftovers as your family? We just get the leftovers of your energy and your people at work, get your best self and we get the leftovers.

Yeah. How? 

Hayley Van De Ven: Stab. Stab. 

Cherie Canning: Stab. And also I can feel it in my body as I'm saying it, it was so right. And so it's the balance of both too, right? I hate that. Yeah. Annoying. I do. And also thanks. [00:29:00] Yeah, it is. And that, and I don't know about the word balance, I don't know how you feel about the word balance, but it's the integration of it, I think, of our energy, making sure.

That we've got it for the people in our world that we love and that are our heart and soul and our families, whatever dynamic that looks like. And also for the people that we lead, because that's their lives that they're coming to and that's our livelihood. So yeah, how does that integration work for you?

Hayley Van De Ven: I heard Phil DeBella say this one. And it's always stuck in my mind that work life balance is bullshit. It's work life harmony. Sometimes you're going to have to lean in in starting of any business or whether a startup or an existing business or like a peak time in, your calendar for the year, sometimes there is no balance it's full, like flat to the floor.

But sometimes you have the opportunity to have a little bit more balance or a little bit more harmony and you got a bit more time on your hands to, concentrate on other things and just being again, kind to [00:30:00] yourself that not every morning you're going to be able to nail going to the gym, not every morning you're going to hit a protein shake.

Cherie Canning: Yes. 

Hayley Van De Ven: Like some days you're going to be on holiday and you're not going to have your, like you. Blaster thing there, or some days you're going to be in a meeting at 6 AM or some days you're not going to finish until late. The reality is not every day has to look the same, but how you feel is actually something that you can control.

And knowing that you've done everything that you can to support that I think is probably the most pivotal part to managing that harmony. So that you're not feeling burnt out. 

Cherie Canning: Yes. Otherwise. You're out. Yeah. And if we don't have that wellbeing, the health, the energy for it, then exactly who's going to do it for us.

No one. 

Hayley Van De Ven: Exactly. I was only talking to my brother this morning at five 30 in the morning, which is hilarious. That's when our opportunity to chat was because he's gone back to playing AFL last night. So he's gone down to the Panthers and he's had a game and he's, had a laugh cause he's a bit sore this morning and I was like, but how good [00:31:00] did that feel to do something for yourself?

Cherie Canning: Yes. 

Hayley Van De Ven: I used to play netball quite competitively. And I remember my very last game, I was like, I'm way too old for this. I need to find something else Pilates or walking or something else because netball, even though I loved it and the knees very hard on the knees, but it's also hard getting out jumped by an 18 year old.

And when you're approaching 40 rapidly, which I was it was a bit devastating to just be like, I'm too slow. I'm too like, I'm not. Jumping high enough. I've got to give this because I don't like to lose. So what's your thing now? Look, I donate to total fusion. That's the truth. And as I said, I try and go at least three times a week, but I'm not I'm a donator.

Yes. And, but I am walking the dog. We got a new puppy and she's very boisterous in the morning, so it's a good opportunity to have some me time, listen to podcasts. Go for a walk. And just the main streets of seven Hills at [00:32:00] 5 AM. 

Cherie Canning: Woo. That's good. That'll get those muscles going.

That's brilliant. Brilliant. One thing, Hayley, that really strikes me about you. And I'm curious to just jump in is your genuine, authentic. Connection or focus on being a good human. And you said earlier, and I'm nervous to say it, but I'm just repeating what you said. I think no not all real estate agents have great reputations for being.

Trustworthy or that style of human. Now I do need to say a little caveat, cause we do work with some really great real estate agents. So I, I get there's reputation and then there's reality, but for you running your businesses and multiple real estate businesses, how is it that what kind of culture do you you've named your values before, when it comes to culture and as a leader.

What do you tolerate? What don't you tolerate? How do you hire? I guess it's a lot of questions in there, but just talk us through what [00:33:00] hiring great humans and keeping great humans looks like and how is that sometimes difficult in that industry? 

Hayley Van De Ven: I think what it is your vibe attracts your tribe.

And often when you find an office where there are some untoward behavior or Maybe a little ethically challenged. That's a good word. Yeah, that's a nice way of putting it. That often comes from the leader, right? Like they've either been taught that way or that's been tolerated.

So it continues to happen. So for me, it's actually easy. Cause it's just being me and, everybody being able to question, those conversations and for there to be like a I think it's important for our culture to exhibit like questions, right? It's okay to question me. If you don't feel comfortable with something or it, doesn't align with their ethics or their values that we can have a conversation about it.

And not everybody always has to agree because not everybody has the same values. But not everybody has to work with us either. Yes. 

And I think that's, it's also important [00:34:00] to be able to stick by those things. So if I think about a particular situation quite a number of years ago we had Or what it would be like a sexual harassment issue in the business where, someone made a complaint.

I then went back and said, Hey, look, this is not okay. You've made this person feel really uncomfortable. I know that it's not your intention because I know that you're actually a really nice guy. I know that you definitely wouldn't have wanted to make her feel that way. But you need to know that's not okay.

And then it happened again. And when it happened again, I had to make a really difficult decision as a business owner. Do I allow this or do I walk my talk? Cause I've told him that's not okay. I've told everybody else. I would never do that. So for the sake of a couple of hundred thousand dollars, which is a hard pill to swallow, right?

You're like, that revenue is just about to walk out the door. I had to be able to stand there and say, look, I'm really sorry, but I gave you a warning. You knew very clearly that kind [00:35:00] of behavior wasn't okay. Again, I know it wasn't your intention, but your intention is not the important part.

It's the fact that you still don't get it. See you later. Yeah. And being able to stand up to those moments where you are tested as a leader and you have to decide like, how are you going to walk your talk? Yes. You talked a big game about what a safe space this is and how important our culture is and how.

The people in the business are actually the most important thing there, because if you look after the people, they look after the business, like that's the mentality, right? Yes. But can I actually enact it when it's not, when I know it's going to cost me money and when no one else is looking? 

Cherie Canning: Yeah. And that comes actually back to the answer you gave in the very beginning, what does lead with courage mean?

Having those tough conversations. Prime example, 

Hayley Van De Ven: I'm, I can, I think of another example. We had a sales team join us over in our Bayside office and they said, Oh, can we have a lock on our door? I said, no. Within the [00:36:00] office. Within the office. And I said, what do you mean? She said no, you don't need a lock on your door, babe.

Why would you need a lock on your door? People are going to steal our leads. They're going to come in and have a look and, and they're going to do this and they're going to do that. And I'm like, no, they won't. And she's but how do you know? Because they won't work here if they do that.

And she was like, for six. Months, I'm not even kidding you. She would pile up her basket every day and she'd take her, like her appraisal books and her lead letter and like all of the prospecting stuff that wasn't, like in a database, she would take it home with her. She'd take home a notepad, she'd take home her diaries.

Like it was insane. Because that particular team was quite paper based as well. And I was just like, okay. Again, if I put a lock on their room, everybody else is going to think, why do they need a lock? Maybe I need a lock too. And the suspicion creeps in that they can't trust their colleagues and they don't have that amazing relationship where the, where they have to worry.

I don't want to real estate business where everybody thinks that their competition sits [00:37:00] beside them 

and that 

Hayley Van De Ven: they need to watch their back. That's absolute fucking bullshit. They need to concentrate on outcomes for their clients, 

not 

Hayley Van De Ven: fighting between our walls. And six months later They were walking out one day and I said, see you girls.

And as they walked out, I was like, Oh, they don't have their basket. And they just decided that I was right. They didn't have to worry about the people that were in the business. And they could focus on things that were more dollar productive and worthy of their time. Then the paranoia of that, which it was like, yes, we got them.

Yes. They get it. 

Cherie Canning: Yes. Such a powerful example that trust the psychological safety and trust. If that is not present in a team where we end up wasting our energy, we. Cause then people are worrying and if we haven't got this place of safety, we can't actually relax and then we put that energy into the 

Hayley Van De Ven: wrong things.

Absolutely. Like the last thing we needed, that team to be doing was constantly worrying about who's looking over their shoulder. That's ridiculous. [00:38:00] One, it's not a high performance mentality. It's coming from a space of lack, which is not something that we would support. And two, it's just not going to happen.

If it did, then I again have to make the tough choice as a leader, what I'm going to do about it, and it's just not something that we tolerate. 

Cherie Canning: I love the confidence and also just the acceptance of this is what we tolerate or this is what we don't. Something for, it's such a core one on one leadership trait, isn't it?

Yet, I don't think everybody gets that right where I have this little comic where it's a boss and the teammate having a chat and it's very much a boss rather than a leader or, and he's Oh, so how are you going with those objectives? And the little comics which objectives he's the ones in my mind that I haven't really told you about, but then I'm nailing those, and it's just it's so common.

That we go, it's common sense. Everyone should know that this is okay or not. Okay. And we've all walked different paths. Your first salesperson was eating food out of people's fridges and falling asleep on the job. [00:39:00] And that was okay. I know. 

Hayley Van De Ven: And he was my boss. Like I'm like, when you talk about like examples that are, he was the boss too and would throw me under the bus at any given opportunity. Again, just gave me really great examples that I could have as, if I'm ever in a position of leadership, these are things that I won't do. Yes. And 

these 

are, hard values for 

me that I won't cross.

Cherie Canning: Yeah. That integrity and those moral ethics and that moral compass. And at the same time, not being a pushover. And that's what I really. Appreciate it, admire when we can be so people centric and so people focus and realize that a huge part of that is actually holding boundaries and holding people accountable.

That is in service of the people we lead rather than it being a dictatorship or, people seeing it as a negative. It's actually in service of people. 

Not every difficult conversation has to be a written warning, right? 

Yeah. 

Hayley Van De Ven: Often the delivery is actually the most important part.

Yes. It's because you never ever [00:40:00] know what someone else is going through. You never know what shoes they're walking in that day, what's just happened before they got to work, the morning that they've had. And although they're a hundred percent responsible for the energy that they bring into the room when they walk in through that door, or when they meet a client at their house or whatever it may be.

You don't know what they're going through, particularly, I think there's been a huge rise in mental health issues, since COVID, I think maybe that's become more mainstream for people to probably talk about it before it may have just been stuff that was whipped under the rug. I don't know that people are any worse off.

It's just now it's acceptable to talk about it, and it also gives us an awareness as business owners and as leaders in businesses that, you know, okay. So is this decision right for our people? Is it going to serve the people that we have? And, even if they're not going to be on the journey with us long term, are they better off to be somewhere else where they can have the support or does this job, too demanding for them?

Like in the sense that property managers [00:41:00] are a great example. 

Yes. 

Hayley Van De Ven: Property management is a very difficult job. It's never going to get any easier because it's people management. That's it. Like it's, when we say they're a property manager, they're really not. They're managing a relationship between a tenant and a landlord.

And they're the unpopular meat in the sandwich that has to deliver the bad news to both parties. And that's never going to be an easy job. It's like saying a cop will be an easy job. 

Yeah. It's just not. It's just not. You've got to come to a place of acceptance. If that's, if you're going to be in property management, it's a hard, it's a 

Hayley Van De Ven: challenging job.

It's a challenging job. And do they have all the tools to tackle that? Do they have the psychological safety where they feel comfortable to put up their hand when they're drowning? Do they have, the skillset to deal with the no's, the rejections, the being yelled at, the being abused, like we have always been of the mindset that.

None of you deserve to be, abused if that's to happen, you're to put down the phone, you're to reset, blah, blah, blah. But not everybody can handle that. 

[00:42:00] Yes. 

Hayley Van De Ven: Some people like I, I don't take it personally, but that's 22 years or 23 years of weathering the storm. Yeah. If you're a new 18 year old to the market, how many times are you going to get yelled at before you think, Oh, I don't want to do this job.

This isn't for me. This is not for me. And then. For us as a business and in hiring the right people. And I think, which was like an original question somewhere in there, it was like, all so if the typical person in property management doesn't mind a fight, because often it's just a negotiation backwards and forwards all day.

How do you make sure that person that you're bringing into that business isn't actually looking for a fight? They're looking to solve a problem and help a client. And provide a solution, not just go in for the fight. 

Cherie Canning: Yeah, that's an interesting one. 

Hayley Van De Ven: How do you see the difference? I think in the last couple of years in particular, we've identified the difference.

We do a lot of personality profiling, as so that's really important to us because the property manager in particular has to be [00:43:00] very process driven. But they also have to be very people centric in the sense that it's not about the tasks. It's about the outcomes. Yes. A lot of that comes with training and obviously personal development, but if I'm really honest about it it comes down to the recruitment process and asking better questions.

Yeah. 

Cherie Canning: Yeah. Yes. And I guess this is the thing when you've been in business for some time, you see the patterns and the trends and you begin to learn and notice what you look for, what you don't. And you mentioned before in your morning practice, often your journal, when you're journaling, is it reflections and learnings or have you got patterns in your journaling of what you try and get out or is that different all the time for you?

Hayley Van De Ven: Sometimes it's just. Getting everything out of my head, cause I think particularly, as a business owner and as a mom and as a leader of people and as, there's always a million things all the time. And so I'm always really mindful of the fact that, like the fires that are burning brightest get my first attention at the start of the day.[00:44:00]

So it's okay, we've got a problem here. We've got a problem there. Tackle it early, get it done, move on. 

Yes. 

Hayley Van De Ven: And it's like even prioritizing my time because sometimes, because we have the three locations one of the businesses I haven't spoken about is our VA business which is right now.

Yeah. Bali in the Philippines and Sri Lanka now. And they were born like the VA business was born out of COVID. And then it was scaled out of a liquidation of a property management business. And I rang the CEO and said, Hey, I know that, obviously now that you've gone into liquidation, all of your VAs are going to be made redundant.

Would you feel comfortable about me approaching them to see if they'd come and work in our VA business? And they were like, absolutely, that would make us feel so much better knowing that they'd be, someone's going to love them. But that brought us the scale of really incredible, already educated and trained VAs that really hit that virtual assistant business like nothing else.

Cherie Canning: That's incredible. Another business in your 

Hayley Van De Ven: I don't run that business but it was certainly set up just to, feather us [00:45:00] and it's turned into something quite incredible with now over a hundred VAs across those three countries and. Very real estate centric, but has certainly got like a number of VAs that are working in finance and conveyancing and, like those types of allied businesses now.

Yeah. But you don't run that or? No, I'm really lucky. I founded that with my cousin who lives in Bali and she sits in the office with the team, which is amazing. She'd been a real estate agent for 10 years before that. She knew the craft and then we bought on a GM just over a year ago. 

Cherie Canning: Oh, fantastic.

That is so wonderful. I love then that allied approach to your business that you've got the core business of selling real estate and property management and then all those allied. It's fantastic. 

Hayley Van De Ven: It's all born out of need, right? What are the things that I need in my business to make it more efficient and to deliver a better like product or service to market.

So for us they've been born out of frustration, but every time that we've opened a new business to serve our business. I've then had my friends and colleagues say, Oh, can we use them? Can we use them? And it's just yeah, okay, sure. Why not? Sherry's [00:46:00] caring. Yeah. But yeah, that's definitely what I guess has happened as the businesses have grown.

Cherie Canning: Oh, brilliant. Brilliant. I've got a little, a few of these little cards, we pull these out in workshops sometimes. And I thought maybe I can give you one of these cards to pick and it's going to have a question on it. I haven't done a dodgy and only pulled particular ones, but there's just a few cards in there.

Yeah. Yeah. And maybe this could be our closing question for our conversation. 

Hayley Van De Ven: Okay. My question is what is the best piece of advice you have ever received? Oh. And I can quite confidently say this is from my dad. So my dad's a farmer and he's very logical, like he's very matter of fact, he's Dutch.

So he's tight as a fish. And that's where you must get your high, my height. Yeah. Yeah. 

I see it. I see it. Very 

Hayley Van De Ven: on brand. Banded in, the territory, but he said to me a couple of years ago when I was buying the Bayside business. So that was [00:47:00] 2021. It was a really big investment. I was shitting myself because, like really that was the first time I had to borrow money.

Cause the other businesses been startups. So I hadn't, had to go search for capital and then really put my ass on the line. I got all, I've always had my kind of skin in the game because it was my money that, I had invested or whatever it may be, but now I had to go to the bank and ask for money.

And it was debt that I was going to be carrying. It wasn't just sweat and tears, so it's a whole different offering, totally different offering, cause it's a commitment. And I went to my dad and I said, Oh dad, I'm really scared. I don't know if I should do this. And he said, what's the worst thing that could happen that I could go broke and lose everything.

And what would you do if you went broke? I said, Oh, I'd go back to selling real estate. He said, are you good at that? I said, yeah, I think so. He said, do you like that? I said, I loved it. Like I've yeah, I've always loved it. I'm passionate about it. It's what our [00:48:00] business is made from. What's the fucking problem then?

I love that. And I was like, good chat, dad. See ya. 

Cherie Canning: I'm just going to call the bank now. Yeah. That loan. But 

Hayley Van De Ven: it was literally this, like it was literally like if the worst thing that happens is that you still get to put a roof over your head, could you pay your mortgage? Could could you get another job?

Could you start again? Yeah. 

Cherie Canning: I love that. I actually needed to hear that today. And I also love the next, the follow up question, because I love the question of what is the worst that can happen? And not as a throwaway line, but a genuine. Risk analysis. Okay. If it really did go bad. 

Hayley Van De Ven: Yeah. 

Cherie Canning: Where are we at with that?

And it's that next question that he asked you. And then what would you do? What would you go and do? Wow. I love that. Okay. I'd go and sell real estate or, insert your answer here. It just gives you that. Reality check that reality, that peace of mind that you go, okay, I would have a plan B.

Yeah. Not what I want .

Hayley Van De Ven: [00:49:00] Yeah. It's not what I'm dreaming. 

If

Cherie Canning: Don to, I wanna yeah, exactly. Fulfill that. But I know I'll actually be okay. 

I

Hayley Van De Ven: think that it gives you that confidence of that if the worst of the worst happened, how would you pay your bills? How would you pay your mortgage?

How would you put food on the table for your kids? And if you can do that. Then really, what's the problem? Yeah. And you're not as blunt as my dad this time. 

I

Cherie Canning: love that. And I said it was my last question, but I do just want to mention one other thing and just have a quick chat because that just leads me to about contribution.

I've seen that you're an ambassador for four voices. Oh, what an 

Hayley Van De Ven: incredible organization. 

Cherie Canning: Incredible. And I'm doing a little bit with Vinny's CEO sleep out and both, I think supporting people experiencing homelessness and for four voices, domestic violence and supporting women, giving them support around financial and even the connection, the vans to be able to call and charge their phones.

Connect people need to go and check [00:50:00] it out. And yeah, I've seen you recently named as an ambassador for them and. 

Hayley Van De Ven: I'm so proud to support them, honestly. I think Joe, who's a local here in Morningside is an incredible inspiration. Her sons actually run Orange Sky which is a laundry service for those that don't follow it.

But so she has that blueprint for creating something incredible and really going to scale. So I'm excited to see what she's going to do with Four Voices, but the organization itself, it's just full of the most incredible women that just have. the biggest beautiful hearts and really want to give back.

I think that we can get so complacent, in our nice suits and our high heel shoes or whatever it may be that, there are people that are dealing with a lack of connection and at a total loss, the ones that are experiencing domestic violence and being tracked by their partners on their phones and, not allowed to leave.

The house or they're having, they've got incredible financial abuse that is being occurred, that their money, anything that they're getting, whether or not it be at work and, or. It [00:51:00] might be their Centrelink payment is being taken from them the moment that it hits the bank or like just situations that you know, particularly as independently financially independent women, it's almost hard to fathom, like, how did it ever get this bad?

Yeah. But through, yeah, how is it still happening? Exactly. Like why? But not everybody has been given the same opportunities. Some people have been, grown up in, in a cycle of abuse that they don't actually know anything else. And being able to provide these pathways for these women to connect with the outside world and not feel so isolated and alone.

Even if it's just for 15 minutes, being able for them to charge their phone or connect the printer so that they can print out papers, giving them advice about, people that they can connect with to help them when they have had enough of that situation, they do want to make a change.

Often they can feel so helpless and not know where to turn. So it's incredible to raise the profile of four voices in the community and and experience that, like that connection with. with lots of people and lots of [00:52:00] women, that, that really do require that.

Cherie Canning: Yeah. And it's incredible. I really honor the work you're doing and that the four voices do and however people can contribute in our own communities. I think it doesn't, there are so many incredible organizations and charities. It's just about contributing because I reflect in on. Your dad's question to you now, and you go, wow, you, you still had my worst case scenario was you still had a career that you could lean back on and confidence and financially literature, whether you'd be in that point where you go, I have got nothing left and have to rebuild, but you've had that path of knowing what success looks like, which is an incredible thing.

And it's your own hard work to get there. There was another guest, we actually had a conversation with Toby Jenkins and he was at the Sleepout last year and he got interviewed and he talked about, I have, I know I've got a lot of privilege and with privilege comes responsibility and that really stuck with me.

It's a wonderful thing when we can build these [00:53:00] businesses and build the love life that we desire and have lots of love and great experiences like that's what it is about. And at the same time, not everyone's having that opportunity. So to be able to contribute and give back and be an ambassador and really bring the light to those who need more support right now, I really honor it.

I think it's incredible. 

Hayley Van De Ven: Yeah, thank you. It's a new role for me and the organization, so I'm really looking forward to seeing what we can do with it and certainly being part of the whole ethos. The Balmoral Rotary Club, who I, Been part of the years and years is such an incredible organization locally.

And a lot of those a lot of the, the fundraising that we've done, a lot of the work that they've done, that money's always gone like to Cambodia or, to Indonesia or, like it's gone externally to other countries, but it's been really nice to be able to contribute to an organization that's local and it's hyper local as well.

Yeah. I think that we sometimes forget that. This actually exists on our doorstep. 

Cherie Canning: Yeah, [00:54:00] sadly it does, and we live in a very blessed, fortunate country, and yet. So many people are really needing a hand up and support. So yeah, keep doing that amazing work and keep building all your amazing businesses over here and the contribution.

It's really inspiring, really wonderful. And yeah, keep it up. I can't wait to keep following and see, hear more about it. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much, Hayley. And yeah, we'll put all the notes in. Actually, we'll share some four voices links as well and everything where people can find you and your teams and all your amazing businesses and amazingness.

So thank you for joining me today. It's really been beautiful to sit down with you. 

Hayley Van De Ven: You're a sweetie. Thanks. Thank you. Bye. Thank you. [00:55:00]